Roosevelt Island Red Bus Problems At The Octagon, Waiting Time and Express/Local Bus Bunching - At Least Red Bus Door Not Slammed In Their Face Before Boarding
Octagon resident and Roosevelt Island Residents Association (RIRA) Common Council Representative Max Long is concerned about the amount of time the Red Bus seems to wait at various stops. Mr. Long writes:
I'm concerned about the wait time for red buses that have already "arrived" at various bus stops on the island. The buses seem to sit idly very often, frequently waiting for several minutes before moving again. I've heard that these bus delays have reached up to 10 minutes on several occasions. This seriously impacts the flow of the bus schedule when one considers the relatively short amount of time if actually takes to circle the island. I've spoken with several residents in my building - and in other buildings on the island - who share this opinion.Octagon residents have also expressed dissatisfaction with the bunching up of the Octagon Local and Express (Octagon Express operates only during weekdays from 7 AM - 10 AM) at the Octagon stop during the morning rush hours. Octagon morning rush hour commuters often experience seeing two buses at their stop, board one, and then discover they are on the local bus as the Express Bus takes off first leaving them sitting behind on the local bus. Other times, the Local Bus is at the Octagon Stop first, residents board it and then the Express Bus arrives and leaves while Octagoners are still on the Local.
A reader sent in this photo taken at 8:55 AM one weekday morning of two Red Buses waiting at the Octagon Stop.
The Bus in front is the local and behind is the Express.
Some have suggested moving the Octagon Express departure time a few minutes ahead of the Octagon Local so as to avoid the confusion of the two buses bunching up.
Regarding the Red Bus waiting time, my understanding is that it occurs at the Octagon and the Tram/Visitors Kiosk stop which are arrival/destination stops on the Red Bus Route and are required in order to maintain the fixed schedule established by RIOC (approximately 15 minutes per route).
For those residents in Manhattan Park and Northtown who become frustrated when seeing the Octagon Express Bus pass them by as you are waiting for a bus, remember that the Octagon Express Bus service is paid for separately by the Octagon owner as an amenity to it's residents and would not be in operation otherwise.
I was told by a reader who witnessed this, that the Octagon Express did make a stop by the Good Shepherd during last Friday's rush hour.
As the bus doors opened up, Public Safety Department Deputy Director Bryan exited the front door and then the doors quickly closed before the waiting passengers could board. The Octagon Express then took off to complete it's route leaving the passengers at the Good Shepherd stop waiting for the next bus.
UPDATE 3/ 18 - Added a separate post with comments by RIRA Planning Committee Chairperson Frank Farance's responding to this post and reader's comments. Please click over to add any thoughts or comments you may have on subject and don't add any comments to this thread.
29 comments :
Regarding the red bus, In my opinion only one driver( a lady) is the only decent person; she is always kind, say hello, drives well, wait for people etc....For the rest there is always something wrong....Also, many days that I leave at 9:30am I see buses "out of service" coming from the octagon going to the parking lot. Sometimes I have to wait for the bus for 30-45 min because there are almost no frequent buses after 9:30am....But please teach these guys to be gentle, make stops, wait for people...the service is terrible....
The red buses leave the Tram Station before the arrival of the incoming tram and then wait at the kiosk if they are ahead of schedule.
This forces incoming passengers to go to the kiosk stop OR wait for the next bus.
WHY IS THE KIOSK CONSIDERED THE BEST TURNAROUND POINT?
I'm glad Max has sparked the debate. Event if it has been an ongoing one. I have been a resident of Roosevelt Island for about 4 years. The RED BUS has been a thorn in my, you know where, for as long as i've been here. I don't understand why it's so difficult to figure this out. It's just one street people. How is it that the MTA's (specifically the Q102) on time record is much better, and they travel on and off the island? If the Express bus is an amenity for Octagon residents, someone needs to let the drivers know that. It is so frustrating for the Express bus drive to arrive at the Octagon, drop off passengers, then passes up a LOOONNNGGG line of people waiting. Only to go hide. This forces us to board the Local bus, because we need to get to work, and we don't have time for games. The strategy of this game is to figure out which bus will get you to the Subway/Tram the fastest (the local, Express, or Q102). I will say this, I can set my clock to the Q102, and they will get me to the subway in less time then the RED BUS, and that's leaving at the same time, or after the RED BUS. I will choose the MTA over the RIOC any day.
I agree with the other writer. There is only ONE driver that's nice. It's the female drive that was driving the RED BUS to Manhattan when the Tram was down. She is consistently nice. The others act like they hate their job, or they can't drive faster than 5 miles per hour, or their stubborn.
RIOC, It's not rocket science. It's a bus, one street, and passengers. It's not like were running a whole city.
The Octagon situation can easily be solved by communication from the local driver. The express runs on a schedule. If the local bus is going to wait past the express schedule the driver should inform passengers as they board. Why they fail to do so is anyone's guess. My pet peeve is the evening rush hour driver who does not stop at the proper place in front of the subway or at the Octagon. He makes his own stops waits for the bus to fill rather than a reasonable time at the subway and is by far the slowest of all the drivers.
I don't know. I've been taking the red bus at 40 River Road between 8am and 8:30am every day and it is so predictable when what bus comes. Their schedule varies only by a couple minutes at most.
Complaining about bus service during rush hours is petty. There are so many buses running and does it really matter that you end up on a local bus instead of the express bus? Do we really have to count every single minute? Our lives are stressful and busy enough as they are.
I really don't mind the delays because I'm lucky enough to be able to walk if any but I DO MIND the bus driver allowing his friend to board the bus without paying and praising the lord out loud in spanish. THAT BOTHER ME A LOT.
Anyone noticed her or was I the only one in the bus that day ?
Who is in charge of the bus department? Is it Christopher Baker from Island Operations or someone else at RIOC? What is this guy or gal doing besides receiving a paycheck?
Yep, it's Christopher Baker... but don't try calling him to complain, cause he won't take or return a call.
Where is public safety during all this. Isn't it their fault somehow? Many people think it has to be their fault.
Word 5:23... And time is money people. Do we really need a schedule? Isn't it better if all the buses just drive as fast as they can around the island?
If I ran this place, the red bus costs would be built into our ground rent (which they already are partially subsidized by). Half of anyone's time on the red bus is spent waiting for people to pay, easily 5 minutes per ride.
The tram would not have a schedule it would just run continuously as fast as it could. Tram ride every 6 minutes. We are paying the operator, might as well be running the thing. i think the electricity and maintenance costs are worth our saved time.
Worried about money, take the money Poma owes us (YES THEY OWE US PER CONTRACT) and use it to save us the time they cost us by implementing these ideas.
Save 5000 people 10 minutes a day on this island which saves a total of 300,000 minutes or 13000 hours or about 35 years. That's not chump change. That is time these inefficiencies take away from all the stuff we want to do besides ride the red bus and sit at the tram station.
Here's an easy experiment to run. Do a lap in the morning where no one pays. Do another lap where everyone pays. Subtract. (about 5 min)
Multiply by number of riders in a lap (about 50)
You would have made about $12.50 from that run charging people if you are lucky. Not charging them you saved a total of about 4 hours, at an average rate of even $7 per hour that is $28.
The Moron who blamed public safety is a moron,Do you blame the police when the MTA bus is late... Island resident 10 years..
After 25 + years here, I think I have seen and heard everything regarding the red buses. Current RIOC VP Martinez, Chris Baker and RIRA presidents past and president cannot seem to grasp the following:
AM and PM Rush Hours -- Bus Drivers should do continous shuttle loops -- fill up the bus, keep going -- drop off or pick up as the case may be.
Evening rush hours bus service should be continued till at least 9 pm with at least 3 or 4 buses since that is when people really need them. And in the evening rush -- give us an express bus whose first stop is 30/40 River Road and the Octogon -- giving the rest of us a chance to get a bus to the WIRE buildings and 2,4,10 & 20 RR.
That Octogon Express SHOULD NOT leave folks waiting at the Deli or at the Church IF THE BUS IS NOT FULL...
This dopey waiting stuff and a fake schedule is ridiculous. Keep those buses moving constantly. Force those drivers to use their radios so everyone knows where each driver is all of the time...
Everyone who uses those Red Buses deserve better treatment and service than they are currently getting. RIOC needs to knock it off regarding a transportation mgr or what ever BS they are proposing.
@ Frank F, take it easy, I was joking. I was trying to make the point people try to blame Public Safety for everything, even if it has absolutely nothing to do with them. Lighten up, I am not a moron.
Regarding the Express Bus, this is paid for by the people who live in the Octagon building, NOT THE ISLAND. Is this correct? If this correct, then we don't have to stop and pick up.
11:36am: yes, that's correct. The complainers can complain all they want. If they want to take that bus they should take another bus to the Octagon and switch to the express bus. I think one thing we should give Octagon management credit for: this express bus is available to everybody. You do not have to be a resident of the Octagon.
I agree that Octagon has first call on the Octagon Express because
they pay for it; but RIOC are losing passengers to themselves by ALSO providing Octagon with the same bus service as the rest of the island.
I don't think the time/cost of sending all the Red buses to Octagon is compensated by the current arrangement for the Octagon Express.
It is simply inefficient and reduces revenue on the regular red buses. It is a long ride to/from Octagon during rush hour,and it contributes to the irregular service elsewhere.
"Everyone who uses those Red Buses deserve better treatment and service than they are currently getting" I really like that!
We need corteous drivers, wait for people to get into the bus, a safe drive, etc....
Also, it is terrible when you see people who have to pay and they do not.....I do not know why that happens....They say hello to the driver, spend some time chatting with him and then get off...it happenes many times....
PLEASE, WE NEED A BETTER BUS SERVICE IN MANY ASPECTS....
1:29PM did they stop the firehouse local? It is my understanding that all buses do not go to the Octagon during morning rush hour. I still don't understand why some people get all up in arms about the express. Before it was started everyone was complaining that the bus was filled by the time it left 40 river road. This complaint has largely been eliminated. I have yet to hear anyone offer $200 per year per apartment like the Octagon does to improve service and reduce rider load.
Also, no one seems to mention the added ridership that was put into the system from Coler workers when the Octagon opened. Before the route was extended most of the employees took the Q102, the shuttle bus, or walked. Since extending the route a significant portion is using the red bus.
Why are we making this complicated? It's very simple:
The Express is paid for by the Octagon, but is open to this who catch it at the Octagon stop.
The Local bus is needed at the Octagon stop for individuals who aren't going all the way to the subway.
They just need to have a better way for the driver to communicate with each other, and not have them arrive at the same time. At least having the express bus always first will allow the majority to board, then it can make way for the local bus.
One thing we all agree on is, the RED BUS needs to be more efficient. In its' current state, it's not.
Just a handful of responses.
First, RIOC has been a poor listener on the red bus issues. Anonymous says "RIOC, It's not rocket science. It's a bus, one street, and passengers. It's not like were running a whole city.". This is SOOO TRUE. The residents (including RIRA reps Matt Katz, Aaron Hamburger, and myself) have explained many many times how to avoid these problems, but RIOC keeps getting it wrong. I'm not sure if it is Mr. Martinez or RIOC board members on the Operations Committee that is the cause.
RIRA has explained that the 20-minute schedule was the better choice because we wouldn't have the schedule variability that we have now ... it's not just rush hour, there are problems with non rush hour, too. We've known for many years that this 15-minute schedule is impossible because it implies a 30-minute loop, which the drivers cannot complete regularly.
RIRA did *not* ask for the stop at the kiosk, RIRA wants the bus stop at the tram. It was Mr. Martinez who said that we need a stop at the kiosk because Southpoint Park will be built (in several years) and at time there will be a new route for the southern end. Sure, that makes no sense for today (and probably won't when the park is completed).
Given the available choices, RIRA preferred the west service road to be two-way for buses only (bus pickup/dropoff at subway station), which would allow red buses to line up on the east-west transverse road next to the tram. And this would allow for parking on both sides of Main Street in Southtown, it would be more convenient for Southtown residents (there aren't building entrances on the west side, so you're stuck walking around the block), and would have spent approximately $2000 (repaint yellow line and a couple street signs) rather than the $100K+ for the high-tech parking system (that really doesn't save any fuel). Are we the only New York State agency brimming with cash and money to blow on a $100K+ parking system?
I point these out because several related decisions continue to further box RIOC into even worse decisions.
Second, in response to Trevre, although it is counter-intuitive, running the red bus continuously provably produces poorer service (try a running a queuing model) because the result is that the buses will always bunch together and service will be less predictable. Years ago, RIOC President Steve Shane believed continuous buses made for better service, but both model simulation and real-world data proved him wrong. Thus, red buses need to wait a few minutes at the start of their route, just like subways and MTA buses.
Third, the Octagon Express bus doesn't make "local" stops, just like subways/MTA-buses don't make local stops, even if they aren't full. The Octagon Express bus has its own schedule and staffing load (cost) and changing the route would affect them.
Fourth, the problems with pick up and drop off at the tram and the subway are a combination of bad overall planning (present west service road routing) and bad direction by RIOC managers (Martinez, bus managers) and not necessarily the drivers fault.
Fifth, there are some problems with the drivers, but these are much easier to fix. Overall, the drivers are *not* the cause of the present schedule problems.
Sixth, having the Octagon Local and Octagon Express take off at the same time makes no sense from a scheduling and queuing perspective. The drivers could help by making sure the side LED sign says "Octagon Local" or "Octagon Express".
Matt, Aaron, and I will be meeting with RIOC staff next week. Will keep you posted.
Frank Farance
RIRA Planning Committee Chair
Frank,
I don't know why people have such difficulty understanding the express bus. Octagon pays, they get an extra bus a few hours a day. End of discussion.
I agree, the tram stop is obviously not the best configuration. We don't have to complete a trial period to show this.
I would love to see the data that indicates buses waiting idle than buses always moving. One thing has changed, on the west end road buses can pass more easily and won't be bunched as frequently. Bunching can also be avoided if drivers leave a stop when a bus behind them arrives, rather than waiting for everyone to get on. Finally, like I said before most of peoples' time is wasted waiting for everyone to pay. Make the bus free and this would solve 75% of the complaints.
RIOC apparently chose to spend money on meters for the little used parking spots on the West Side drive rather than "losing money" by testing whether waiving the charge for riding the red buses would result in service improvements (faster commutes and less road congestion) that more than offset the revenue reduction.
I've seen the West Side parking spots occupied here & there - the are obviously not heavily used because they are not optimal for schlepping stuff to Riverwalk apartments - imagine trying to drag a shopping cart loaded with stuff from Costco over the lawn especially after it's rained - the unloading/loading areas by the building entrances are much more convenient/rational.
You get what you pay for people. The bus is only $.25 cents and I'm told RIOC loses money on this venture. If they doubled the fare to $.50 cents, they would break even and maybe the service could be better. I say go ahead...what's another quarter? Just fix the issues already.
There are two discretionary factors affecting the high costs of running the red busses.
One is that RIOC chose to use very large buses instead of using buses but running more often during rush hours.
The other is the additional cost and time of servicing Octagon at the same fare as the old town.
These inefficiencies will take time to correct but hopefully be rectified as RIOC recognize the benefits of using buses that can turn around in the circle in front of the tram station instead of meandering around the tennis club.
The RIOC should bump up the fare to $1. It's a reasonable price point. The RIOC will have some additional revenue, the buses will be less crowded, service will be improved. More people will walk and stay healthier longer that way.
It is ironic that the city bus accepts Metrocards but the red bus does not. I would think RIOC has lost ridership to MTA for that reason
A couple more responses ...
Treve wants to see why continuous buses is less optimal. Here's a simple demo. Draw a circle with two dots: one at 12 o'clock and the other at 6 o'clock -- these are the two stops on a counterclockwise bus route. Start with a bus at each stop and start the buses running. When they reach the next stop, assume that the same number of passengers arrive at each stop to board the bus. The two buses would stay synchronized and the same distance apart. Because the two buses are equal distance apart, they are each picking up 50% of the passengers.
Now, give the first bus at 12 o'clock passengers more than the second bus at the 6 o'clock stop. The first bus (at 12 o'clock) has a longer wait because more passengers are boarding, meanwhile the second bus (at 6 o'clock) has already departed. The second bus continues, but picks up less of than 50% of the passengers (because it is closer behind the first bus) meanwhile the first bus picks up more than 50% of the passengers the next time around, which causes a snowballing effect: eventually the first bus picks up all the passengers while the second bus trails behind picking up no passengers.
When buses trail like this, the average passenger waiting to goes up to double the time and the bus utilization goes to 50% (the second bus becomes a wasted effort). When there are more buses in the route, average waiting time can triple or quadruple.
Because Roosevelt Island has uneven passengers in its route (more southbound passengers in the morning, more northbound passengers in the evening), this kind of *twice-daily imbalance* creates the bus-bunching and schedule variability on continuously running buses.
Both bus bunching and longer waits were observed directly and daily when the red buses ran continuously.
By establishing route synchronization points (a waiting period at start and end), the buses serve the residents more consistently and more regularly.
Anonymous 7:37 said "The bus is only $.25 cents and I'm told RIOC loses money on this venture...". Mass transit systems are not profitable merely by user fees. For example, the subways, railroads, etc. get some of their money from user fees, some of their money from a regional tax (whether you use the system or not), and other sources. The 25-cent fare is a nominal fare, with the remaining costs paid for by building ground leases (i.e., our rents/maintenance). Probably, a better solution would be a free bus rather than a more expensive bus. With a free bus, passengers could enter through both doors and decrease loading time (as they did years ago when the red bus was free).
For Anonymous 9:23, raising the bus fare doesn't necessarily help. For example, a $1 fare might decrease riders and might make the buses even LESS profitable. Less riders, means less flow of people between buildings, which diminishes the value of the buildings because there is less cohesiveness among building complexes, which translates into lower rents/etc., which has a serious impact on Island finances.
For Anonymous 3:25, Metrocards are not practical for the red bus because of the transaction fees and the installation/operations cost.
For Anonymous 8:26, running larger buses makes more sense than smaller buses. Each bus has a capacity of 60 people, so with 5 buses in rush hour (1 Octagon Express, 2 Octagon Local, 2 Firehouse Local) that's 600 people per hour or 1,800 people during the morning rush hours. With the Island population of about 14,000, 1,800 is about 13% of the population. I'm sure more than 13% of the residents are commuters, so decreasing bus capacity would affect commuters.
Also, larger buses are more efficient than smaller buses for this kind of operation. Staffing is a major operating cost, so more smaller buses makes for large staffing costs, i.e., smaller buses carry the same load but do it less efficiently with more cost.
Frank Farance
RIRA Planning Committee Chair
Post a Comment