Friday, November 23, 2012

Update On Roosevelt Island Main Street Retail From Hudson Related's Master Leaseholder - No Shock And Awe But They Are Working Very Hard Says David Kramer, 7 Leases Signed, Signage and Wayfinding Kiosks Coming


An update on Main Street Retail was provided by Hudson Related Master Leaseholder David Kramer during November 20 Roosevelt Island Operating Corp (RIOC) Real Estate Committee meeting. Mr. Kramer reviewed the 7 new and renewal leases signed:
  • Coach Scot's Main Street Sweets (will open shortly)
  • Subway Sandwich Shop (looks terrific says Mr. Kramer, opened up to huge numbers)
  • Natural Food Market (a month or two away)
  • Wine Shop (taking a long time to get its liquor license)
  • Gallery RIVAA (3 year renewal lease)
  • Trellis (new renewal lease signed and drawing up plans for substantial renovation of space.)
  • Child School (Art and Music space at 2nd floor of 504 Main Street, coordination of work needs to be done with the NY Public Library which is in negotiation for first floor of 504)
Mr. Kramer stated that he did not wish to speak about leases still under negotiation or tenant lease terminations still under negotiation but added that 2 leases were being negotiated with current Roosevelt Island residents.

Mr. Kramer discussed 2 new digital signage and wayfinding kiosks that he would like to install on each side of Main Street. He added that Roosevelt Island needs at least 10 of these kiosks up and down Roosevelt Island from Lighthouse Park to the FDR Memorial and offered to share the design costs if RIOC chooses to install the additional non Main Street kiosks on Roosevelt Island.

Mr. Kramer added that the Arcade signage and lighting prototype pictured above will be extended up and down Main Street.

Mr. Kramer was asked about the fate of the hardware store and declined to speak about it publicly. RIOC Director Margie Smith stated that RIOC did not charge the hardware store for the rent of previous tenant and assumed that the previous tenant built those charges into the sale price of the business to the current hardware store owners.

Here's the audio webcast of the November 20 RIOC Real Estate Committee meeting. The presentation and discussion of Main Street retail begins at the 13 minute 15 second mark and ends a the 48 minute mark.



Also discussed during the meeting were plans for the decommissioning of the Steam Plant and a Sportspark Young Adult Program.

126 comments :

Janet Falk said...

Perhaps one of these wayfinding kiosks will be installed at the Tram and another at the subway station.

Visitors come to the Island and have no idea that they can go to Southpoint Park or Gallery RIVAA, not to mention getting a bite to eat at Riverwalk Bar & Grill, Fuji East or Trellis.

RIOC is leaving tourist and revenue on the table, saying it has a directional signage plan in the works. It's more than four years since I heard that refrain.

Kramer is not helping his retail tenants by putting up even temporary signs to the "Shops on Main Street" to the anticipated thousands who will visit Four Freedoms Park.

Gina Pollara told me that the Four Freedoms Park will have signage, but it is one month after the opening and nothing has been set up.

As for the Shops on Main Street signs themselves, in the photo, the dark blue on gray is far less legible than the white on red of the Nail Salon, presumably shot in the light of day. Imagine how hard it will be to read at night.

CheshireKitty said...

Maybe the vertical "thick" lettering is supposed to suggest the vertical rectangular blocks that form the facade within the arcade - or, suggest "newness" in that the style resembles that of tabloid headline type. The lack of contrast makes the sign difficult to read - exactly opposite what a headline is supposed to do (communicate news at a distance). Either the designer, in using such an almost monochromatic tone-on-tone color combination, wants to suggest the newness of the shops in a low-key manner - toning down the "tabloid news" evocation of the fat type style - thus downplaying the possible downmarket association with tabloids, or it's simply an example of not clearly thinking through a design problem.

Frank Farance said...

The new signage represents two aesthetics: (1) Not Invented Here, (2) Cut Off Nose To Spite Face. The Roosevelt Island "brand" has been red and white, that's why our tram is that color. But Kramer's architects have the mindset: whatever was done on Roosevelt Island has to be wrong, so they have to be different, i.e., if it's Not Invented Here (Kramer's architects), it must be no good.

Here's the Cut-Nose-Spite-Face angle: the signs aren't functional (due to poor color combination, etc.), and other merchants (who actually pay for their signs) aren't choosing this kind of signage. Some vendors, when selling a new idea to a client, exclaim:

"it's really popular, I have many clients who are doing it, here some sample of other clients".

But Kramer's architect is the opposite:

"this signage is really unpopular, in fact I can't find a paying merchant who would choose this signage in LIC, Astoria, UES; and on top of that, potential customers won't be able to read your sign". Tee, Hee!

Suggestions:

(1) Incorporate design elements from the existing Roosevelt Island brand (red and white) into the new design. Consider font styles similar to tram (or offer to repaint tram in the new branding style). Let the iconic tram drive the design.

(2) The signage needs to be functional, i.e., it can be read from the street at 10 MPH.

(3) The signage needs to un-powered to save energy.

(4) Have a public meeting with merchants / residents to get feedback *before* the next iteration. (Kramer seems to be all about NOT having any stakeholders involved.)

(5) Consider cost: A $5,000 sign is a real burden for many merchants.


(6) RIOC Board: Stop approving Kramer's expenses that he deducts from the rents. Assert yourself and reject wasteful expenses, e.g., all the non-functional stuff Kramer has done that any second-grader could do better. RIOC Board, you should get a spine on things other than firing Steven Shane when your privatization interests are at stake.

YetAnotherRIer said...

The signage is fine. I walk by there every single day, day or night, and it does what it's supposed to do. It's just different and that's why you guys are all jumping up and down again. It is getting boring.

CheshireKitty said...

Yet - Frank is right about the color scheme. Just put RIOC into your browser and go to the RIOC website - it's red. Red is the overall "theme", brand, or trademark color of RIOC - the Red Bus, the Red Tram, even portions of RIOC buildings are trimmed in red such as Motorgate. If I'm not mistaken, the train station lobby internal struts are also painted Red - in keeping with the RIOC color scheme. In the Main St signage, Kramer has deliberately rejected RIOC red to signal a complete break with RIOC. First it will be his design scheme imposed on Main St, next it will be all of RIOC property - which of course will need to be rebranded to match Kramer's vision. A visitor to RI will then get the impression that Kramer developed and maintains Main St. and the key aspects of infrastructure that enable life on RI such as the roads, sidewalks, sea-wall, and AVAC. The illusion of Kramer ownership will be further enhanced once Kramer gets RIOC to accept a name-change for Roosevelt Island itself - perhaps to a less "socially-conscious/controversial" name such as Quemana (between Queens and Manhattan). No more references to Roosevelt - so the name of FDR from the 4 Freedoms Park would also go. Perhaps Kramer would like to put a golden dollar sign or maybe his own bust in place of FDR's once he takes over that space - to signal the triumph of developer money over social consciousness. The impression then will be that what was formerly known as RI is yet another privately developed enclave, like Newport and many other luxury waterfront developments in NJ. If RIOC accepts Kramer's redesign, it signals the eventual burial of RIOC as all of RIOC's property - buses, tram, and so forth - little by little falls under Kramer's redesign scheme, so as to make it appear that Kramer owns all of RIOC's property. But is a lease agreement a transfer of ownership? The answer is no. RIOC still owns the assets and properties under its control - and only RIOC can and should make far-reaching design/branding decisions including a decision to remove RIOC red from any/all of RIOC property. Let's be clear about this again: A lease is not ownership. Kramer was awarded the Master Lease for the purpose of filling empty storefronts and managing the commercial spaces along Main St - only! His role with regard to the commercial spaces should be no more and no less than that of any rental management company, which only manages property for the owner, in this case, RIOC. If RIOC, in the Master Lease, has agreed to a superficial clean-up and overhaul of the Main St commercial corridor, that should not include the removal of the unique RIOC brand from RIOC-owned property.

Jesse Webster said...

I think the overall signage design (in terms of size, materials, etc.) is fine, with the exception of the color of the lettering which is not functional. The "default" lettering color should be white, which would stand out more from the street at all times of day.

However, I disagree that the entire island ought to follow a single, homogenous brand. IMO the existing red/white signs along the arcade on Main Street make it more difficult for individual businesses and organizations to differentiate themselves. Less of a problem with few stores, but as (if) Main Street begins to gain new retail tenants, it could become a larger issue.

Individual businesses should be allowed to design and use their own lettering and logo, within the confines of the sign dimensions, or default to white on the gray background. Subway used their own logo (of course), but M+D did not and their sign is very hard to read at night.

Speaking of Subway, anyone know what happened to the smaller square sign they had jutting out over the sidewalk facing north/south? That made a lot of sense to help people recognize the various businesses as they walk up or down Main Street.

Also, now that RIVAA has signed a 3-year lease, would it be possible to take up a collection to have their awnings redone so the lettering is on fabric that matches the blue material on the rest of the awning? I don't think the entire awning would have to be replaced, but could be mistaken. I'm not sure who all would be responsible for that at RIVAA, but Kickstarter could be a good way to crowdsource donations from the community to help with this. I'd pitch in a few bucks for sure.

CheshireKitty said...

By coincidence, Cornell's brand color is also red. As the Cornell website says: "The color red is associated with energy, strength, and power. Cornell’s first association with red was the red felt banner holding cut-out white letters spelling “Cornell University” used during the October 7, 1868 inauguration of the university and its first president, Andrew Dickson White." https://cornellbrand.cornell.edu/color.php

Jesse Webster said...

That both RIOC and Cornell's brands lean heavily on the color red is merely a happy coincidence. It's irrelevant to my argument that a homogenous "Roosevelt Island" brand should not be imposed on the various business along Main Street.

Most businesses have their own brands and their own color schemes. On the Island, Riverwalk, Nonnos, Starbucks, Duane Reade and Fuji East all have similar awnings, but each has its own color scheme, logo, font, etc. Trellis has its own logo, used in the WIRE ads and on its neon sign. Businesses need to differentiate themselves in order to be successful.

I understand restrictions on sign materials, sizes and placement, as well as as guidelines for neon or LED signs (as exist at the nail salon, Trellis and China 1), but enforcing a color scheme or brand would be counterproductive.

Frank Farance said...

Jesse Webster, I mostly agree. If a store, such as Subway, has a standardized logo and signage, then that is the one I want. I'm sure you've been to places that had common design elements in their branding book, but they still allow McDonald's golden arches, the red Staples logo. and the blue Chase/Citibank logos (well everywhere but Quebec :-) ).

If you (and YetAnotherRIer) carefully read my suggestions, I am not saying everything has to be the same as it has always been, I've just framed it as 4 normative provisions:

- incorporate existing design elements from Roosevelt Island's red/white scheme: the red tram, (as CK points out) the red bus, etc. (note: that doesn't imply all store signs are red/white; see Manhattan for many illustrations on how to do this)

- the sign needs to be functional; contrary to YetAnotherRIer's approach, the *primary* Use Case for signage is for people who have *never* seen the sign before, *not* people who see the sign every day (e.g., if I see Trellis every day and am familiar with it, at that point there is little functional purpose of that sign for *me*); also remember that the main entrances of Eastwood (510, 516, 536, 540, 546,556,560, 576, 580) will all need signage good enough so that taxis will know where to pick up passengers

- the sign needs confirm to usability guidelines (e.g., contrasting colors, enough size, easily read by a driver at 10 MPH)

- the sign's implementation has design requirements of no power (visible at day/night), and moderate cost

Those are important requirements, yet they allow a wide range of solutions. Expressing it this kind of way (guiding principles for signage) and framing it in the context of a larger perspective (branding book) are pro forma. However, tinkering with a sign, and then extrapolating those experiments to a design, and working backwards to the "brand" is the wrong way to do it. As I've said previously, Kramer's architects didn't need to waste several thousands of dollars on a sign, just a paper implementation could have discovered the problems.

The fact that Kramer's architects are tinkering with these kinds of ideas tells you they haven't a clue.

One more thing: The new Subway sign was blown off in the wind around the time of Sandy. It was poorly constructed and poorly installed, it didn't look like it would withstand the usual storms we have. I've attached a picture of the broken sign below.

Really, the only reason they're doing this amateur stuff is because they're amateurs.

YetAnotherRIer said...

Not everything has to get the RIOC brand. I think it is already overkill that the railings and the lamp posts are all red. We don't want to make things even more kitschy.

YetAnotherRIer said...

"Really, the only reason they're doing this amateur stuff is because they're amateurs."


They should hire you.

Jesse Webster said...

The iterative design process is not necessarily indicative of an "amateur" approach. Lots of design-based business do small-scale mock-ups before expanding a final concept to its full-scale implementation.

I think the "default" gray background H/R eventually settled on is OK, since it will should coordinate well with most logo lock-ups, regardless of their color scheme. Red is not a similarly flexible color. But if a company doesn't want to use the gray background, they should have wide latitude to change it.

Any style book for Main Street should be only mandate sign materials, sizes and placement, as well as as guidelines for neon or LED signs. A common color scheme for Main Street is not appropriate for a neighborhood, in the way it might be for a college or corporate campus. Having a mixed palette will give a more vibrant appearance.

Once the glass is removed from the arcades along main street, I think the Eastwood entrances are mostly well-marked. 510 and 580 are examples where the doors face away from the street, so they need to have numbers on the concrete facing the street. I don't think those need to be the same as the business signage, however.

YetAnotherRIer said...

"contrary to YetAnotherRIer's approach, the *primary* Use Case for signage is for people who have *never* seen the sign before, *not* people who see the sign every day"


Are you implying here that I do not know what I am talking about and that I cannot judge the design of the signage with tourists and other people not being familiar with the island? Just because I agree the design is fine you go straight to the argument that I am not thinking this through?

CheshireKitty said...

There is an element of "cuteness" in having the RIOC design/color ethos throughout RI - like a Tinkertoy town. The little red buses, the "cute" tram, even the miniature garbage trucks and the RIOC golf carts - all contribute to the "cute, tiny" image. RI may be much more than the little village it was originally, but not much more. Main St is unlike other streets - space is at a premium - so everything has to somehow fit together without a sense of randomness or chaos. Visually tying together many elements of the street scape with a common or "theme" color helps the pedestrian or driver make sense of the street.

CheshireKitty said...

It is odd that they were able to pull off putting stores in place at Southtown but unable to do the same thing - fill the empty storefronts - at Northtown. Is it really asking that much to get stores to move into these storefronts? The superficial stuff - the cleanup, the new signage, even removing the glass - makes no difference. There once was a pizzeria, a bakery, a sports bar, a liquor store, a fish store, and a florist on Main St. when the arcade had glass and the signs were all white on red, and drawing upon a smaller customer base since they thrived before MP, O, and ST were built. All these businesses did reasonably well until for one reason or another each eventually closed. Now H-R doesn't have the constraints of PAA or PARA or anything - he can just act like a landlord and rent the spaces. Yet you see his excuses as more than a year draws to a close since the signing of the Master Lease, he has only one new store on Main St to point to - Subway - with promises of several more "in the works". Kramer's problem is over thinking Main St - imagining he can remake Main St by the design overhaul. He should concentrate on renting those stores out first and then force RIOC to maintain the sidewalks/arcade and so forth - which is what they are supposed to do - keep up the streets, make sure they are free of trash and so forth. A good example of how Kramer has failed - along with the flimsy Subway sign - is Kramer's inability to get the deli to fix its front window. This is a simple, basic task that any landlord could accomplish. Call the owner, ask about the status of the window, if there's a problem see if he (Kramer) can be of assistance - such as with finding a reliable glazier etc. But maybe the deli owner wont talk to Kramer now that he's saddled with the miserable, illegible sign. One poor choice - such as the choice of colors for the signage - multiplies problems, such as when merchants get sick of Kramer's "ideas". Kramer - amateur? Not really. Kramer is a professional real estate executive, but he's (unfortunately for RI) an incompetent one. The miracle is he's been kept on as long as he has by H-R.

Jesse Webster said...

That's one helluva slippery slope you've imagined. Your insane paranoia is really not adding anything to this conversation.

Frank Farance said...

YetAnotherRIer, maybe you're right: as you suggest, it is possible that you don't know what you're talking about. Essentially, your recent posts haven't made any substantive counter points, just bogus rhetoric (such as your saying, paraphrased, "I'm bored listening to you"), which is usually indicative of a lack of substance.

But you're right that I might think you don't get it: if you understood the emptiness of an Anonymous Person making a vague Appeal to Authority Argument based upon some other unnamed Anonymous Person combined with two instances of Rhetorical Blurring (first in referencing yourself, and second in reporting the opinions of your friends), then you wouldn't be making the kind of argument yourself, right? (Actually, I do have a hunch you know what I'm talking about, you're just wasting time with bogus rhetoric, right? Had I made your argument, you'd rip it apart in an instant, right?)

You say "Are you implying here ... that I cannot judge the design of the signage with tourists and other people not being familiar with the location in mind?". What you said previously was "The signage is fine. I walk by there every single day, day or night, and it does what it's supposed to do.". When you frame it in the first person, that was a claim about yourself, not a claim for others. So you've now blurred your claim to include tourists and others, i.e., different than you post you reference. And if your original claim were to include tourists/others, day/night, etc., then Yes, I'd think you were a poor judge of others' needs.

As for your anonymous friends, I doubt you gave them the same 4 bullet points as Requirements and asked if the signage meets those requirements. And if it they said Yes It Does, then they're amateurs.

Go use Google Images and search for:

outdoor bus bench advertisements

and scroll through the first ten pages. I'm not seeing anyone using the Dull And Duller color scheme you advocate. So if your anonymous friends who "know a bit of marketing and street furniture", but the market/reality doesn't correspond to their thinking (see Google Images), then maybe they are amateurs, right? If they were right, then I'd see prevalence of Dull And Duller that your friends say is OK, but Google Images just shows Bright And Bold (just like LIC, Astoria, UES)


Or maybe your anonymous friends would explain how the unlit Dull And Duller color scheme is readable at night by cars driving by.

Frank Farance said...

Jesse, I didn't say/imply iterative design was bad. My point was: tinkering with one sign, and then extrapolating it to the branding book isn't good.

As for having a common design, if we had to do it all over, I agree with your points on limiting it to size, materials, placement, etc.. But the GIVEN here is that H-R wants to have a common theme. So the discussion shifts from Common-Theme-Or-Not, to Which-Common-Theme?

Jesse Webster said...

They don't seem to be forcing Subway, the salon, RIVAA or RI Cleaners to remove their awnings in favor of the gray signs, although Subway does have both. Maybe it's not as much of a GIVEN as you suggest.

Frank Farance said...

YetAnotherRIer, maybe you should look at the Dull And Duller signage at night (see photo). Picture taken at a driver's position southbound. Ask your "friends" if the unreadable sign is still "functional". Clearly, the Bright And Bold are visible.

Frank Farance said...

CheshireKitty: The Roosevelt Island Bridge is *not* RIOC red, it's Deep Cool Red. I found the article I read years ago on the color of NYC bridges (which was discussed in RIRA):

From "http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/18/nyregion/thecity/18fyi.html":

Rainbow Bridges

Q. A question for the repainting season: Who picks the colors for the city’s bridges? And why are some bridges painted differently? The Manhattan Bridge, for example, is bluish, and the 59th Street Bridge is sort of tan and brownish.

A. It might sound like the bridge painters are just having fun with their paint pots, but in fact, different agencies have different standards and traditions.

First, the Port Authority. The George Washington Bridge, which the Port Authority controls, is covered with a three-coat zinc, epoxy and urethane gray paint, called Pewter Cup Gray. The Outerbridge Crossing is also Pewter Cup Gray.

M.T.A. Bridges and Tunnels, the former Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority, paints its bridges what the agency calls Triborough gray, a light blue-gray, said
Catherine Sweeney, an M.T.A. spokeswoman, who added that the color doesn’t fade and tends to blend against the sky. The color is believed to have been selected by Robert Moses.

The colors for bridges that are landmarks — the Queensboro and Brooklyn Bridges and several others — are decided by the Landmarks Preservation Commission.

As for the other city bridges, Matthew Kelly, a City Hall spokesman, explained that the city’s Art Commission chooses the colors based on palettes kept by the Department of Transportation. Most recently, the Art Commission selected Deep Cool Red, the same color as the Hell Gate railroad bridge, for the Roosevelt Island Bridge during
reconstruction last March.

Jesse Webster said...

You're boiling the ocean here. Let's focus on the topic at hand.


Although I agree (shock!) with Frank's arguments about the conflicts of interest that exist with the current board, I think you're off the rails with most of your argument.

Whether H/R developed the retail on Main Street or RIOC did it directly, new signage and wayfinding would be required. This is a need that had been identified far in advance of the master lease.

So the issue is one of taste and functionality. Some of H/R's decisions aren't in keeping with my taste (or yours, apparently), and some are clearly not functional.


It's most definitely not a conspiracy on the part of H/R to undermine FDR's legacy, or to topple the American welfare state. It's business. Calm yourself.

CheshireKitty said...

Red is red - whether you want to call it RIOC red or deep cool red. Most looking at the bridge and the trim on Motorgate would say both are red. I remember RIOC requesting the bridge be painted red (it was previously grey if I'm not mistaken) to match the red scheme used by RIOC. Also - I do not think there is any such thing as a trademark or particular red RIOC uses - it's simply red, just as the bridge is simply red. I doubt if the red used on the tram matches exactly the red of the buses. The point is - it doesn't matter if the shade of red is or isn't exactly the same, it conveys red all the same.

Jesse Webster said...

RIOC uses fire engine red as their shade of choice. The tram, red bus, trash cans, trucks, banners, etc. all basically use that particular color. The "Deep Cool Red" of the bridge is bluer than fire engine red, giving it a purplish hue. I don't think anyone with normal color acuity could mistake the two, or think the bridge is painted to match the RIOC brand.

CheshireKitty said...

It's nice to interpret Kramer's actions in such an anodyne fashion - as if it's simply a style choice. If it's simply a style choice, then H/R should have no problem with attending another community meeting to give residents, Main St merchants, and any other interested organizations, a chance to let him know what they think of his proposed re-branding of Main St and the electronic kiosks he is suggesting RIOC buy and install throughout the island. We would all be waiting with bated breath to hear him explain how and why the new signage is readable, and what exactly the slogan "Shops on Main St" is supposed to convey about our town - as well as why he decided to jettison red. IMHO, the simplest thing for Kramer to do is jettison blue for red and ditch grey in favor of white. Thus you would have red lettering on white signs. This gives a clean look but still refers to the myriad red-painted objects on RI. For all I care, he can use the fat-looking type he has already selected to express the new brand. As far as parkland or other land being developed to benefit the rich: Don't kid yourself that the City - even areas that could have been developed as parks or possibly monuments - isn't for sale to the highest bidder, or even conveyed as a gift for development. Parks and promenades are fine as long as they enhance the value of nearby properties - this is the "business" way of looking at these public amenities. But what about those properties? Concessions for the middle-class are grudgingly granted, while the elite gets to conveniently self-perpetuate their hold on power from their zones of economic exclusion, sending their kids to the "right" schools, as scraps of "opportunity" are swept off their table to "educate" the less advantaged or provide "affordable housing" for the lucky few who may win a cheap apartment in a lottery. Who spins this Wheel of Fortune? For the game to continue it's imperative that public education remain sub-optimal, living conditions miserable, unemployment or underemployment high, and above all distractions from the above realities cheap or preferably free - because a miserable, poorly housed, ill-educated and always-distracted underclass is much easier to rule (or, is the correct word "hoodwink") than one that at least is aware of the cause of its miserable existence. The game means the elite is always on the lookout to either stifle or make money off the underclass, which is why FDR and his programs have been anathema to them since the 30s. The game on RI for years - as elsewhere - has been to displace the original mixed-income, predominantly middle-class, population, in favor of the rich. If the supply of rich runs out, then there is always the option of flogging the apartments to groups of room-mates forced to spend their last dime on rent. This is no different from what is going on in many other parts of the City - with gentrification, development of areas for the rich only, or "improvement" of previously cheap/"ethnic"/slum areas with the purpose of driving out the "underclass". In Astoria luxury towers are about to rise not just adjacent to but actually within a sprawling NYCHA complex of buildings - because of rezoning permitting high-rise luxury development along the waterfront of Western Brooklyn and Queens. The contrast is unmistakable: NYCHA buildings do not get updated or rebuilt from scratch. The elites, on the contrary, enable through rezoning and the award of land within the public housing complex the construction of high-rise luxury residences - with little or no provision for the underclass. You can work out for yourself the mixed messages concerning "luck" "social class" or "opportunity" these towers will send to the surrounding neighborhood of NYCHA buildings. Rezoning is just one way the game is played. Another is re-branding.

CheshireKitty said...

Jesse, anybody would say the bridge is red. As I said, red is red - and it's more than just a coincidence that the bridge was painted red. Ask anybody what color the bridge is, and they'll say red. Ask anybody what color the tram is, they'll say red. You will see variations in shade if you put the colors side by side - since there are thousands of shades of any color - but we still say the color of the bridge is red. Are the buses the exact shade of red as the tram, the trim in Motorgate, the train station, the PSD office or the awning above the RIOC office? Probably not. And it doesn't matter - they're all some shade of red and perceived overall as red.

Frank Farance said...

Oh CheshireKitty, surely you recognize there are different shades of colors. I'm guessing the "RIOC red" of the signs is Pantone Red 032 and the Roosevelt Island Bridge is close to Pantone 208. See page 3 of "http://www.goalfie.com/pdfs/pmschart.pdf" for a comparison of colors. (Or in hex they are ED2E38 and 8F2140, respectively; Your Mileage May Vary.)

Assuming it is Pantone Red 032, then the signs would be printed with that particular shade of red, not just any red. For example, the AT&T "globe" logo isn't printed in any blue, it's printed in Pantone 2925 or 2995, see page 6 of the Pantone chips.

When people specify color, they use one of several standard color systems (PMS, CYMK, RGB, etc.). Specifying a color precisely is not equivalent to claiming it is a trademark.

Although color might be a trademark feature (think Louboutin red soles, or Owens Corning pink fiberglass insulation), I don't believe RIOC ever asserted any intellectual property over the color. However, the Island silhouette (see 552 Main signage) was claimed as a trademark by both by RIOC and Roosevelt Island Housing Management (now Urban American), I have no idea what the status is of those claims.

Frank Farance said...

CheshireKitty, the Deep Cool Red has been the color of the RI bridge for 50 years, it predates RIOC by decades and RIOC had nothing to do with its selection.

According to a Society of Protective Coatings report (see "http://www.sspc.org/media/documents/tech/Nov_Tech_11.pdf"), the RI bridge has been painted with Polysiloxane technology paint:

COATING SELECTION

Roosevelt Island Bridge had originally been painted with a deep red color, but more than 50 years of exposure to ultraviolet light and weather caused the red color to fade into a shade of pink. Having already witnessed disappointing color-retention results with both a standard polyurethane and a system utilizing a polyester clear coat that was specified for a similarly colored project a few years earlier, NYCDOT was especially concerned that the deep red shade selected by the New York City Arts Commission as a historic color for the Roosevelt Island Bridge have exceptional durability.

In order to ensure that optimum color and gloss retention were obtained while balancing against budget, four general coating types were selected as potential finish coats. After a thorough review of all four options the final finish coat selection choice was ultimately a polysiloxane finish .....

CheshireKitty said...

I'm saying that - there are different shades of red and the Dept of Bridges picked the one closest to that used by RIOC. Isn't there a limited number of colors to select from (an official palette) that bridges can be painted? Aren't these colors typically somewhat "muted" - so as not to be "flashy"? The bridge is painted red in the shade of red used by the Dept of Bridges which is as close as they could get to the shade used by RIOC. Also - the bridge paint fades fast, whether or not it was originally more fiery. Either way, people looking at the bridge would say it's red, even if it is now fading - just as people looking at Motorgate trim would say it's red even if it is covered in bird poop. What difference does it make if RIOC does not or cannot always use the exact same shade? It's probably not possible to always use the same shade - which may not be available for all types of finishes, and moreover may be perceived differently depending on the material. Nobody cares - it's enough that the color is red. Kramer could use a shade of red that refers to that most often used by RIOC, on a white background, instead of navy on dark grey, for his signage. Also - the Shops on Main St concept is hackneyed. A million shopping developments use the same catchphrase. Can't he think of anything more original than the Shops on Main St? There are some things that are unique and set RI apart - such as the tram and the existing use of red - and could be incorporated into a new design. Anyway - his money is thrown away on pushing any kind of slogan or branding of Main St if he thinks that will encourage people to spend more money. The stores are there as a convenience for residents - like many out of the way neighborhoods, there is little through traffic. Thus the mix of stores has to ensure affordability by the most modest layer of the population, which is still quite a large portion of the population overall and undoubtedly still the largest share in Northtown. Even 2-4 RR would suffer if the cheap Main St stores were replaced by expensive ones. If there are no cheap stores on RI, where are the 2-4 RR residents going to shop? As things stand now, stores selling cheap merch cannot survive if Kramer has his way on the rent hikes. In this way, many on RI will be cut off from economic life on RI and probably forced to travel up to Steinway to find anything they can afford to buy. In this way Kramer helps his developer friends literally drive the poor off RI once they can't even afford to shop here. It's understandable that Kramer would dread having to attend a community meeting about the stores/signage - he doesn't want to have to say to the population that they will not have the cheap options henceforth - because of the way the population will react to the news. Who would want to be in his shoes as he informs the modest-means population that not only will the thrift store close, even the Chapel will go - as will the comfy seating and glass along the arcade - removing from the low-income people the last free or cheap places to shop, rest or pray. If Kramer thought the first community meeting was a "riot-meeting" he should prepare himself for an even louder, angrier reaction to his proposals at the next meeting.

CheshireKitty said...

It's possible RIOC selected the color red for its trademark color to match the RI bridge, which was here long before RI was developed by RIOC. RIOC built Motorgate which is connected to the bridge so it's logical they would select a trim color to match the bridge and give the Motorgate-bridge complex an overall unified look. There you have the possible reason why RIOC originally selected red - to match the RI bridge - thank you Frank! This further supports the notion that even structures that are not under the control of RIOC - such as the bridge and the trim of the train station - continue to be red so as to harmonize with the overall color scheme, which may have originally been "set" by the bridge color!

Jesse Webster said...

Wrong, but thanks for playing.


The shades look nothing alike. I suggest you visit your local optometrist for a color acuity test.

CheshireKitty said...

Check out this photo of the bridge alongside Motorgate and tell me, even though the red of the bridge is somewhat more saturated than the red of Motorgate trim, if it isn't in the same general family - bright red - as Motorgate. http://www.triposo.com/poi/Roosevelt_Island_Bridge
If anything looks red - and close enough to the color of Motorgate trim - it's the bridge.

westviewgirl said...

please form an island improvement board and all of you do something about all these issues. Sometimes you try to one up the other person posting and that is wasted time. Talk to HR and Kramer and RIOC about changing some things and it might happen.

Frank Farance said...

Westviewgirl, RIRA has a Main Street Retail Committee. The person who previously chaired the committee was a former H-R employee (don't remember if it was H or R), which seemed Good originally (because of more familiarity with H-R), but Not So Good later on because he seemed unwilling to present any areas of significant disagreement with H-R.


So we have a committee, but you don't get to participate anonymously or wearing hoods. :-)

Frank Farance said...

CheshireKitty, you have the color thing wrong: the bridge color was decided in the 1950's. Possibly, a more plausible explanation is that this particular shade of red is common: Pantone 032 Red is the red in the Canadian and French flags, and Pantone 193 Red (another close possibility) is the red in the US flag. However, regardless of fading, the bridge color with the name Deep Cool Red was never color of the red in the US flag.

For whatever reason, you cannot recognize: (1) the bridge color was chosen independent of RIOC (because it was chosen in the 1950'), and (2) the Main Street signage was a common bright red (such as the red of the US flag).

If UDC/RIOC was looking to match the bridge (which they weren't) they would have chosen the Deep Cool Red for the signage. But UDC/RIOC were focused south on the Tram, not north towards the bridge.

Mark Lyon said...

I have no idea what they cost, but these street lights are quite interesting; http://intellistreets.com/

They incorporate digital signage and a wireless network so the signs can be changed with no effort. They also sense pedestrians and vehicles to increase brightness as needed and have a notification system to call for help.

CheshireKitty said...

Amazing. If it was up to Bloomberg, they'd even have cigarette smoke sensors and every time the sensor goes off, you would get the Voice of Bloomberg over the lamp-post's PA commanding pedestrians to "Put out that Cigarette!" "Don't you know Cigarettes Cause Cancer?!" "Second-hand Smoke is Harmful to Non-Smokers!" "Put out that Cigarette Now!" Otherwise, these wonderful lamp-posts could be programmed to play soothing "seasonal" tunes - interspersed with gentle reminders about all sorts of things, such as not drinking too many sugary drinks, exercising more, driving less, do not jaywalk, do not litter, etc etc. More or less like the Voice of the Escalator in our train station - but on steroids.

CheshireKitty said...

Hahahahah... let's see if the latest edition of the Committee will include members willing to challenge H-R. Previously, it seemed only an "extension" of H-R.

CheshireKitty said...

None of us can say why RIOC/UDC selected red as its "theme" color. To me, it would make sense red - some shade of red - would be picked to "liven" up the previously "dreary" island, and also to pay tribute to the bridge, if not *exactly* match the particular shade of red of the bridge. BTW - even the public school trim is painted red, if you look up at the struts and metal under-awning of the building along Main St., it too is painted red. So there are many non-RIOC properties that are painted red. It's like asking - what came first, RI red or deep cool red? What probably happened is that by the time UDC decided on red, the bridge color, previously deep cool red, had faded a bit, so the closest red UDC could think of was the brighter, more cheerful red it settled on. Deep cool red is perhaps less flashy, and more sophisticated even, than RI red. Yet UDC did not select that exact shade of red - maybe because that was not the shade that was on the bridge in the 70s, because of the rapid fading of the paint. Some of the deep and cool tones may have faded - leaving just a faded looking red. UDC went with bright red - maybe a deliberate choice because the bridge was already red, maybe just a random coincidence as you seem to think.

Westviewer said...

No, most people describe the bridge as purple.

CheshireKitty said...

Purple is going too far - it's mid-way between blue and red. Nobody would say the bridge is purple, or grape-colored. Maroon - not even. It's a deep red that may not be as clear or bright as the red RIOC uses, but it's still red, definitely not purple.

Jesse Webster said...

I can't stand that escalator voice. It's unfortunate that we have to be yakked at from every angle nowadays.

Denise Shull said...

I haven't read all 44 comments so forgive me if I am again stating the obvious but the signs, the blue on dark grey, are a terrible choice. Mr. Kramer - at night you can't see them at all - not even a little. What about grey with RED - neuroscience research says that people react to red more quickly - a good thing for pulling people in. Also, the chance of seeing it goes up. Last, it does, to Frank's point, continue the RI theme. Or, red with neon silver - something that could definitely be seen.

Happy to point you to the science on red and perception if you like ~

Frank Farance said...

Ms. Shull, in addition, you should point them to the science of blue nd perception ... all the problems with blue at low lighting levels. Here's an excerpt from "http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/rodcone.html":

The visual perception of intensely blue objects is less distinct than the perception of objects of red and green. This reduced acuity is attributed to two effects. First, the blue cones are outside the fovea,where the close-packed cones give the greatest resolution. All of our most distinct vision comes from focusing the light on the fovea. Second, the refractive index for blue light is enough different from red and green that when they are in focus, the blue is slightly out of focus (chromatic aberration). For an "off the wall" example of this defocusing effect on blue light, try viewing a hologram with a mercury vapor lamp. You will get three images with the dominant green, orange and blue lines of mercury, but the blue image looks less focused than the other two.

CheshireKitty said...

Exactly - what I've been saying all along: Red continues the RI theme. Thanks, Denise!

Frank Farance said...

No CK, you've been saying that the Deep Cool Red (aka, maroon, appox. Pantone 208) of the RI bridge is the same color as the arcade signs (approx. Pantone Red 032), and you've said that RIOC chose the color of the repainting circa 2008 when, in fact, it was the Art Commission who chose this color (not RIOC, who as no authority on choosing the bridge color), and the color choice was made in the 1950's (RIOC didn't exist then). And the RI red/white theme (UDC) applies to the things UDC built: Main Street, Motorgate, the Tram. Which is part of that billion dollars that RIOC owes to UDC for building all that stuff. :-)

CheshireKitty said...

Everyone except you sees that the RI theme color is red. It's even carried through at the school and the train station - non-RIOC properties. Coincidentally, Cornell's theme color is also red. The bridge is a nice deep almost folksy-looking red - and may be the source of the RIOC picking red as its theme color. Since the bridge was here before RIOC, it's possible RIOC picked its brighter, cleaner-looking red as its theme color because of the bridge being red. Thus, Motorgate both "matches" and updates the bridge red. Since red ties together many RIOC and non-RIOC properties on the island, it's the RI theme color. Remember - this entire discussion started because of criticism of H-R's Main St unreadable signage. Since we already have an overall theme color on RI, the thought is that H-R could continue with red for the signage.

Frank Farance said...

CK, you're blurring the point. It is you who sees the RI bridge as the same red (when it's a maroon), and it's this point they everyone disagrees with you. If UDC wanted to match the bridge, they would have chosen a color that matched the bridge. UDC's focus was on Northtown, the Tram, Motorgate, and their other infrastructure. It's clear that UDC chose a different color red than the bridge because if UDC felt they were the same colors (i.e., lacking the same color acuity you lack, as Jesse Webster pointed out), then you'd have some colors that match the bridge (which there are none).

Just like your racial/bigoted interventions, you add your own stereotype-themed storytelling: "The bridge is a nice deep almost folksy-looking red - and may be the source of the RIOC picking red as its theme color".

So now it's "folksy-looking" because in the 1970's there was a real need to present RI as "folksy-looking" along with iconic images of a Tram (red/white), a Motorgate (red), and an AVAC. In other words, a Cable Car, a Multi-Level Car Park, and an Underground Centralized Garbage Disposal are all things one would expect to find in your typical "folksy-looking" tumbleweed town (not!).T he lettering was all the modern/ sans serif fonts, again, to give it that "folksy-looking" feel (not!).

A better explanation is: UDC paid no attention to the bridge color and chose the red/white color combo as familiar (US flag colors) and used modern themes (not folksy themes) to present the imagery of a modern planned community (folksy communities aren't planned communities of social-economic diversity). The Tram in bright red and white was modern, not "folksy-looking" and not the colors of the RI bridge.

The idea of "Main Street" itself is not "folksy-looking", but of a small-town nature, which corresponds to the connectivity and layout of the community. Northtown's campus-like setting is not "folksy-looking". Considering that Island House and Rivercross both have nautical themes, I can't see how this was "folksy-looking" thinking back in the 1970's. The ramps to 536, 556, and 576 aren't "folksy-looking" ... whoever saw such big ADA ramps in a "folksy-looking" town? That's because the 1970's vision of Roosevelt Island was (what we would now describe as) an ADA-compliant town that supported residents of varying abilities.

CheshireKitty said...

Actually, what I said was RIOC red is an update or a newer-looking version of the more folksy-looking bridge red. You didn't read my prior comment carefully, but this is not that unusual for you. You then go off on a digression based on a misreading of what I wrote - which is that RIOC red was chosen to reflect newness vs. choosing the deeper, more folksier-looking bridge red. There is no point arguing the matter anymore because a) we all agree red is the theme color of RIOC (and other properties) on RI b) the bridge is red, albeit a deeper shade. Moreover, we all also agreed that the color combination for H-R's new signage is unreadable. Various alternatives were suggested, and I and others thought quite plausibly why not go with red, since it's the theme color of the island. There's really no arguing with these points, unless we start splitting hairs: Oh, this color is not exactly the same "Pantone" as that color, why was this color chosen etc. etc. This is why Albany will never select you for RIOC Board membership, Frank - you're just too too much. For all your abilities and seeming smarts, you just don't know when to stop and use common sense.

Also, I don't see how CK's attacks on yuppies/developers/the rich translate into racism. Perhaps you think I am an African-American and that I'm prejudiced against whites. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, if I'm opposed to any one group "reflexively", it's the developers, "banksters" - the 1% who, like any other group, can include members of any race, color, ethnic origin and so forth. Yet even among the wealthy, there are those who may use their money to fund good causes - such as the late Brooke Astor, or Bill Gates. Since China and the expanding economies of the Far East are currently minting millionaires more and more of the rich on Earth are Asians.

I'm opposed to the rich if they get their money at the expense of the poor. I'm for the underclass. It's an oversimplification to say the poor (like the rich) are mostly one race or another, for instance African-American. People are poor or receive assistance for many different reasons - and as everyone knows, the majority of people receiving assistance in the US are white. There are also a large number of working people who do not get a chance to organize and strike for higher wages, such as the thousands of Walmart, MacDonald's and other fast-food establishment employees. Though they work, they get such low wages they might as well be poor. It's impossible to refract poverty through the lens of race since economic catastrophe doesn't discriminate. I am opposed to the perpetuation of unfair privilege and accumulation of wealth - not that different from the position of Barack Obama in pushing for a higher tax rate on the top 1%. I suppose you think Obama is also a racist because the tax he advocates will "punish" rich folks - who, it is thought, tend to be white. Yet, as I've written above, the members of the 1% reflect as much diversity as those receiving assistance. In any event, what is the point of spending the time arguing? Now I see why you were pushed out of committee meetings for years - unfortunately, you do not seem able to control your obnoxiousness, even when given a chance, as you have repeatedly been given, to redeem yourself.

Frank Farance said...

CheshireKitty, you say "I don't see how CK's attacks on yuppies/developers/the rich translate into racism". Carefully read what I said: bigotry/racism, your statement above is an example of bigotry, meanwhile the following is an example of your racist mind, as pointed out by several on this blog:

KidKilowatt: I realize this is a really bold statement, but I don't think I've ever seen a comment this ridiculous on this web site:

CheshireKitty: "A reader of the blog who is familiar with Main St hardware knows
exactly what Westviewer is referring to - in a perhaps subtle/coded fashion - when he cites "helpfulness and knowledgeability". What he means is the staff of Main St hardware are not as "helpful or knowledgeable" as Lexington Ave hardware because they do not speak perfect English."

It was clear from Westviewer and others that English speaking ability had nothing to do with their dissatisfaction with hardware store, they clarified their points on things they didn't like (disorganization, lack of selection, etc.). However, it is you CK that need to transform this into something bigoted/racist. So regardless of the explanations of Westviewer and others who countered your points, you elevate the discussion to speaking in a "subtle/coded fashion", as if this subtle code is something only you can interpret, regardless of the clarifications by the originators of the comments. That, is an example of a bigoted/racist mind: you gravitate towards framing it that way, as you do again in this comment: so it's OK to bash "yuppies/ developers/ the rich" simply because (according to you) they have more money?


If Roosevelt Island is about economic diversity, then how is bashing those in higher incomes justified? Certainly, you'd complain in the opposite direction, so why the double standard?

rilander said...

That escalator voice is our prelude to Wayne's World! One of these days I'd like to find the source and install a muffler to silence it!

rilander said...

That voice needs elocution lessons so she doesn't say "es-cue-later"

rilander said...

There's already a retail advisory committee in RIRA and it is totally useless!

CheshireKitty said...

It's anti-racist to defend ethnic minorities against discrimination based on their inability to speak "perfect" English. And yes, very often the term "well-spoken" is a not-so-subtle code meaning - an employer does not want to hire either a dialect-speaker or a non-native English speaker. That is racism I'm opposed to. Moreover, I've explained numerous times I'm not even a native English speaker myself. I sympathize with the Korean-American hardware store owner and I was opposed to the comment condemning her as lacking knowledge or helpfulness, if the comment was written in reaction to her inability to speak perfect English (which we know it wasn't). This is another example of your trying to twist comments around - in this case, into the opposite of what's meant. It's preposterous that you would call me a racist when quite the opposite is the case - I oppose racism. You would characterize my defending Korean-Americans, immigrants, those who are underprivileged, those who speak dialect English, racism - I rest my case. So, even if I were Al Sharpton, a leader who defends the African-American community against racism, you'd probably call me a racist.


As far as the yuppies are concerned, what makes you think the yuppies "love" the underclass? The yuppies love clearing the neighborhoods they land in of the underclass - the lower-class/middle-class, "low-brow", poorly-educated "boors" - who happen to form the backbone of NYC. Yet, we all have a right to our particular beliefs regarding the economic layers. Isn't that what makes the world go round? Let the yuppies hate me and the underclass. They're actually in a position to do something about it - like Kramer the landlord, or Kalkin, the smart one, who thought up the Master Lease idea, and so forth. These piranhas of private enterprise can do things like double the rent on the hardware store in order to drive out the Korean-American store-owner - just one of many instances of yuppies and their shock troops, the developers, making previously cheap/middle-class or "ethnic" neighborhoods "safe" for yuppies to take over. It's simply a fact of life that you cannot deny - little by little the entire City is becoming too expensive for the underclass or those of moderate income. Why should I or any member of my economic layer "love" the yuppies, if what they represent is displacement. Upgrades to a neighborhood are only of benefit to those who can afford pricey twee eateries and $7,000+ a month rentals (leaving off the astronomically-priced loft-style apts for sale). And why should the yuppies love me or "my kind"? Now, the difference between the rich and the poor is, as I've outlined above, the rich are in a position to actually do something about the poor, but the poor are usually quite powerless and, as we have seen time and time again, at the mercy of the powerful. Hasn't that played out to some extent in the story of RI itself? Do you really think anything anyone here on RI says or does is really going to make a difference in terms of the ratio of affordable to market housing at 7, 8, 9? Gentrification on RI is here to stay, even with the few crumbs thrown to the poor in the form of a few "affordable" rentals here and there within new construction. RI is a microcosm of what has happened throughout the City and is why thousands leave NY annually to migrate to Penna., the Carolinas etc. - anywhere where they can find a cheaper cost of living. Maybe RI was once about economic diversity - but no more.

CheshireKitty said...

It's too much. If the TA has to have constant reminders on an escalator, why doesn't it also have recorded reminders to stand away from the edge of train platforms? Or reminders in the elevator to move to the rear of the elevator and face forward. If it doesn't make sense to have constant recorded reminders on the platforms or in the elevators then it also makes no sense to have them on the escalators.

CheshireKitty said...

It's a subcommittee of Island Services, which really didn't do much except have a couple of meetings with H-R reps. Basically, we go along and see what H-R comes up with. I'm not sure if they got involved with RIVAA lease-rent negotiations - i.e. advocating for RIVAA, even peripherally getting involved. Not sure if they got involved to save the Shopper's Bus - but maybe they did. Do I think they'll get involved to advocate for the retention of the existing/remaining businesses such as the hardware store, thrift,and non-profits such as Chapel: Unlikely. But there is an inevitable turnover in RIRA so it remains to be seen what the latest iteration of Island Services-Retail Advisory Subcommittee will be about.

Frank Farance said...

I believe I was the one who raised the issue about the loss of the Shoppers Bus.

Frank Farance said...

CheshireKitty, your bigotry/racism comes from overlaying/fabricating race-class-ethnicity via attribute/intent when there was none to start. So Westviewer thought the hardware store was disorganized/unhelpful. You work yourself up into a blather:

CheshireKitty: "Westviewer prefers the Lexington Ave hardware store because its staff is more knowledgeable and helpful than that of the Main St hardware store. Why is this comparison an implied or underhanded ethnic, or anti-immigrant, slur? Since the Korean-American couple cannot help but speak broken English (since they are immigrants to the US from Korea)
Westviewer seems to equate the ability to be knowledgeable or helpful with the ability to speak English perfectly, an ability many if not most immigrants cannot claim."

Jesse Webster: "No, you are projecting your own prejudices into this conversation. It's
rude and uncalled for. You are not inside anyone else's head (and I suspect you're not completely inside your own), and your race-baiting does nothing to change the meaning of the words Westviewer actually
wrote."

Here's more fabrication from you that inserts your bigotry into others' statements: as if you know better what Westviewer meant than his he knew what he mean, including his own clarifications:

CheshireKitty: "What Westviewer really meant is "I cannot communicate as well with the Korean-American store owner as with an expert English speaker, so I interpret this language barrier as a lack of knowledge and helpfulness on the owner's part. I shop at a store staffed by expert English speakers because I interpret their English language ability as a sign of knowledge about hardware, and with the ease of communication, they also seem more helpful." Because of the above judgment based on English language skills, Westviewer goes out of his way to shop at Lexington Ave hardware".

Jesse Webster: "Or it could mean that the staff just aren't helpful or knowledgeable, irrespective of their language abilities. The store, as several commenters including myself have previously stated, lacks quality
merchandise and is disorganized. [...] The "language barrier" you perceive and project onto others has nothing to do with it. As an individual who only speaks English, I can
assure you I find many "perfect" English speakers to be unhelpful and unknowledgeable, even though there is no language barrier between us."

As others can see, it is impossible to state a bland complaint about a merchant's service (disorganized, unhelpful) without your transformation into some race-ethnic-class framework. Your bigotry runs long in many of your extensive comments.

CheshireKitty said...

So now we see where you are really coming from: In your view, those who stick up for ethnic-racial minorities, the poor, women, gays, elderly, disabled, and anybody else who has been or continues to be the target of the establishment, are bigots. Now that is a really convenient political view - coming from a white man with an over-inflated sense of self. You would characterize MLK a racist and a bigot - because he fought for civil rights for African-Americans and other ethnic minorities. Your interpretation of reality leads to opposition to equal opportunity laws, racial quotas for college admissions, and any other sort of break that serves to level the playing field. MLK was also a strong pro-union activist, so you would condemn him as being in favor of a specific class - the working-class - as opposed to the ruling class.


Luckily, the mainstream rejects backward views such as yours in its acceptance of diversity and equal rights for all. Albany had the sense to pass over you for appointment to the RIOC Board, RIOC tactfully ignores what you say or write either on the blog or in the Wire, and RIRA finally had to censure you last year. The issue was your published statements regarding Margie as well as general obnoxiousness in email communications with committee members - not so different from your recent writings regarding gays, the plight of the hardware-store owner, and the poor on RI. I guess I'm in pretty good company if I'm on the side of Albany, RIOC, and RIRA in being "condemned" by Frank! Love it! LOL!

Frank Farance said...

CheshireKitty, you're an anonymous alias who has lots of keyboard bravery to write bogus stuff, if you're really brave, then you'll identify who you really are and take ownership of your ideas.



In your mind, everything must have some racial-ethnic-class angle. It can't be a clean discussion on a topic (e.g., whether or not the hardware store is providing adequate service -- see MLK quotation below), you have to bring in her ethnicity (which had nothing to do with the service concerns), and you have to bring in her English speaking ability (again, which had nothing to do with the service concerns), and then because Westviewer likes a different store, you attribute it class issues (yuppies, developers, etc.), and you make assumptions about the "class" of others (e.g., Jesse Webster).

By your interactions, it is impossible to *merely* complain about service. You invoke MLK, but he would certainly see you as a bigot with these kinds of interactions of extraneous race-ethnicity-class discussion.

Here's what MLK said on September 6, 1960, “The Rising Tide of Racial Consciousness,” Address at the Golden Anniversary Conference of the National Urban League (New York City), with my emphasis added:

"... Now that I have discussed the need for the Negro to work courageously to remove the barriers of segregation, let me mention another front on which he must work that is equally significant. The Negro must make a
vigorous effort to improve his personal standards. I know that this is one of those
matters that we often hesitate to mention publicly for fear that it will serve to aid and abet the enemy in his mad quest to convince the nation that the Negro is neither ready for nor capable of facing the responsibilities of integration. [...] Yet we cannot ignore the fact that our standards do often fall short. Therefore I take the bold risk of being misquoted by the enemy in order to lay before you a fact that we must honestly face. **One of the sure signs of maturity is the ability to rise to the point of self criticism.** Whenever we are objects of criticism from white men, even though the criticisms are maliciously directed and mixed with half truths, we must pick out the elements of truth and make them the basis of creative reconstruction. ...".

CheshireKitty, that is the part you miss: the ability to see the elements of truth amid all your racial-ethnic-class language. MLK got it, you didn't get it.

CheshireKitty said...

It isn't bogus - what's bogus is your avoiding the truth that most on this island have had it with you! Everything I've written - about yuppies, the underclass, ethnicity, race, sexual orientation, and so forth - it's all true and you can't possibly rebut it. So you don't even try! It's not a "clean" meritocracy out there Frank - which is why anti-discrimination laws are needed, and why we do not support organizations that discriminate. Of course people like me jump all over aspersions or criticisms of minorities, the poor, disabled, women, elderly, gays, etc - since these groups have been historically discriminated against. Which is why all the anti-discrimination laws had to be put in. Unfortunately, discrimination is still deeply ingrained, institutionalized - which is why we must continue to struggle to oppose it as much as possible, even 50+ years after the great strides of the Civil Rights Era. I've said it many times - even if the commenter on the thread wasn't referring to the store-owners poor English language skills, those who speak English as a second language are routinely disciminated against and picked on. Yet, if it was up to you, there would be no terms like yuppie, the rich, and the poor. There would be no groups like African-American, Latino, Asian, Catholic, Jewish, gay, straight, disabled, elderly and youths. But these groups exist - and we do not live in a "perfect" post-racial society, at least, not yet. We also have the reality, that is recognized by everyone, of glaring income inequality, summed up by the concept of the very rich 1% vs the rest of us - the 99%. This problem became the theme of the Occupy Wall St Movement, and lives on today as one of the touchstones of the current negotiations in Washington wherein Pres Obama's position is the super-rich will pay a fair share in taxes. But you don't see things this way - for you, if the Korean-American store-owner has failed, it's the fault of the store-owner and capitalism just has to roll right over her, remove her, and rent the space to a new "more efficient" "helpful" "knowledgeable" store-owner. Why don't you acknowledge that you in fact are a yuppie - who pays lip service to being "progressive" but really, are no more progressive than any other yuppie going into quiet, cheap neighborhoods and destroying them/making them "safe" for yuppies - basically, another Kalkin.

Frank Farance said...

CheshireKitty, how brilliant after 400+ words of anti-discrimination blather you finish with bigotry: "Why don't you acknowledge that you in fact are a yuppie", i.e., a stereotype, your currency.

CheshireKitty said...

So being African-American, or gay, or poor, or a Latino, is now - a stereotype? And referring to these groups is - bigotry? Frank, you've outdone yourself. If it was up to you, we'd all have to self-censor ourselves, never referring to African-Americans, yuppies, the rich, the poor, Latinos, women, gays, elderly, disabled - because even to mention these groups is somehow - bigoted. That's amazing. I just never thought of it this way - that it's bigoted to even refer to various ethnic groups, socio-economic layers, groups of women, elderly, youth and so forth. Why did I ever spend so many years studying African-American literature, Russian literature, learning about political economy - if, according to you, there's no such thing as African-Americans, various ethnic groups, or even - socio-economic classes? Frank, let us know why exactly is it bigoted to talk about the various constituent components - which seem so obvious to everyone else - of society? Does it make you, as a white upwardly striving man, uncomfortable, to consider the "other" out there, or the groups of "others" who may be "gaining on you"? I think you do fit *exactly* the "parameters" of yuppie-hood - why not just pop another K-cup into your $500 "elite" coffee maker, sit back and enjoy a fresh, hot cappuccino, and accept it?

Frank Farance said...

CheshireKitty, you're right: you're clueless about your own bigotry. It is not using the words of a Class (race, ethnic, economic, etc.) that make one bigoted, it's how you use them.

For example, just because a person is from an race/ethnic class, does not imply that race/ethnicity has anything to do the matters at hand. Your portrayal of the hardware store owners as Koreans (and all your stereotyping afterwards) has nothing to do with do with any Korean-ness in the complaints on (say) merchandise selection/organization because other Korean hardware store owners don't have that problem. Ditto for English speaking proficiency (other Korean hardware store owners speak with an accent but have robust sales, and the people complaining about our hardware store said understandability was NOT a factor her, it was only your stereotyped victimization that brought the topic in).

You take all Classes' (race, ethnic, economic, etc.) plight and their stereotypes to victimize a person and, thus (you believe) that person is now insulated from criticism. Meanwhile, you throw around stereotypes for others to demonize and discredit people. You're not about listening to individual opinions (regardless of source), which would be a real anti-discriminatory stance, you're about pegging people into stereotype categories and consider yourself virtuous for siding with those of stereotyped (but not necessarily actual) plight.

You are blind to your own stereotyping of people, you say "I think you do fit *exactly* the "parameters" of yuppie-hood". Fitting someone into a stereotype, now how is that an anti-discrimination stance?

So now you want to plug me as a yuppie (not sure if it fits, but it really doesn't matter) and, according to your stereotype, yuppies use $500 "elite" K-cup coffee makers. In fact, I do use a K-cup maker (about $100 five years ago), but not for fashion, but for ecology reasons: growing coffee is very water intensive (about 37 gallons of water to make the beans for a single cup), so making a pot of coffee just to throw out most of it seems pretty wasteful. And the K-cup maker only boils the water necessary for a single cup (more energy efficient than making it on the stove). So for that cup of coffee (a pleasure I very much enjoy), I try to be mindful of some of the ecological aspects. And what is wrong with wanting to use resources more efficiently and producing less waste?

CheshireKitty said...

The word is pegged - not plugged. You have been pegged as a yuppie. Get over it.

Frank Farance said...

CheshireKitty, pegged or plugged (" to publicize insistently", def #30), reveals your ongoing and strong bigotry. So you peg/plug me as a "yuppie" (was never considered one when I was younger), so you can then say "all you yuppies [blah blah blah]" in more bigoted remarks. Regardless that you lost the prior arguments, you want to feel safe that you got one thing out of this discussion: you pegged/plugged me as a "yuppie", a stereotype. You don't get to present yourself as some anti-discrimination champion of the plighted if you're stereotyping us. My sense, is you know little about actual anti-discrimination practices.

CheshireKitty said...

To the extent that we should all struggle for fairness, then we're all bigots Frank since identifying an oppressor and an oppressed group means categorizing, perhaps "stereotyping" for the sake of argument. Maybe you think the US Census is bigoted - since it identifies specific groups of people and areas of the country mired in poverty. Shouldn't we know this information about poverty - in order to address social problems? I'll always be for the underdog and the oppressed, and for equal rights for all. Does the oppressed include white men of the privileged/"upper" class who enjoy hanging out with the "old boy network" say at the Yale Club? Try to explain to me how the white privileged men who seem to be in most positions of power and own most of the wealth, are "oppressed". Investment bankers - "oppressed"? Wall st types - "oppressed"? Quite the contrary. Since they aren't oppressed, they don't need our help or sympathy. The folks that do need our help are the folks I've listed many times: Those that experience discrimination/prejudice/reduced opportunities - immigrants, elderly, disabled, gays, women, "minority" groups including Latinos, African-Americans. I never heard of yuppies in the above group or being referred to as one of the "plighted" (if there is such a word) . Maybe you're not exactly young anymore, but the mentality of yuppiehood still applies (which I will not entertain a discussion of; if you don't know what a yuppie is, no-one, including me, can help you). Here's the definition of pegged - a common slang term: To have someone pegged (verb phrase) means to categorize someone. Example:
Eliot pretended to be a nice guy, but Jeanine had him pegged. He was a creep, just like her ex-husband. http://slangcity.com/email_archive/2007/3_01_07.htm

Frank Farance said...

CheshireKitty, bigotry is inherently unfair in that it presumes something (say) favorable / unfavorable about a person based upon some attribute (race, ethnicity, gender, etc.) and that opinion is without basis (e.g., actual experience of that person), So categorizing people based on age, gender, race/ethnicity, etc. as the Census does is not bigotry because it offers nothing favorable / unfavorable of that personal attribute, e.g., area X has Y% Hispanics ... neither good nor bad about being Hispanic itself.


However, you have lots of opinions about categories (both favorable and unfavorable) and you attribute them to people, regardless of actual experience. For example, you happen to guess I have a K-cup maker and, according to you, it's a $500 "elite" machine for yuppies (not!). Yet, you're wrong about the actual machine or the specifics of why I bought it (ecology concerns). And even with that explanation, your opinion is unchanged.

Here are excerpts from the Yuppie article in Wikipedia:

"Yuppies are mocked for their conspicuous personal consumption and hunger for social status among their peers."

"Yuppism... is not definable entirely

by income or class. Rather, it is a late-20th-century cultural phenomenon of self-absorbed young professionals, earning good pay, enjoying the cultural attractions of sophisticated urban life and thought, and generally out of touch with, indeed antithetical to, most of the challenges and concerns of a far less well-off and more parochial Middle America. For the yuppie male a well-paying job in law, finance, academia, or consulting in a cultural hub, hip fashion, cool appearance, studied poise, elite education, proper recreation and fitness, and general proximity to liberal-thinking elites, especially of the more rarefied sort in the arts, are the mark of a real man."


When I was young, neither of those would have described me at all, nor do they describe me now. I've lived in affordable housing for 30+ years, I've worked on preserving affordable housing and other volunteer work, I was never in those careers. And "hip fashion", "cool appearance", "fitness", ... yeah, right! Still you're going to hang you hat on "K-Cup" means "elite" which means "yuppie".


But I enjoy your responses because you have a knack for saying silly/dumb things, and you just can't help yourself. So keep on replying with your blather so all of us can see more of it. (Just like the brain fart you had the other week on your subtle/coded messages, just loved watching you believe you could bail yourself out of that.)

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