Hurricane Sandy Aftermath - Roosevelt Island Octagon Building Power Just Got Power Restored
Image Of Powerless Octagon Building During Hurricane Sandy From Olivia Rios
As reported previously, Hurricane Sandy knocked out power at Roosevelt Island's Octagon Building last Monday and residents have been without electricity since then. Earlier this morning, I went over to the Octagon and saw Con Ed workers attempting
to re-establish electricity service for the building.
I just received word from an Octagon resident that Con Ed has restored power and they now have electricity.
Before the power was restored, Jonathan Hoo of the Riverwalk Bar & Grill together with Roosevelt Island Historical Society (RIHS) President Judy Berdy
Image Of Jonathan Hoo and Judy Berdy Delivering Food To Octagon Residents
delivered donated food today to the Octagon residents
We will be donating a free hot lunch today at the Octagon on Roosevelt Island in conjunction with Roosevelt Island Historical Society. 12:30The days after Hurricane Sandy have bee difficult and frustrating for our neighbors at the Octagon. One resident reports today:
— Riverwalk Bar&Grill (@RiverwalkBarNYC) November 3, 2012
PLEASE SEND PACIFIERS AND FORMULA TO THE OCTAGONHere's what the East River looked like by the Octagon on October 29 just before Hurricane Sandy arrived.
In our city, where remarkable compassion is bubbling up to a boil, there is a very loud, small, sometimes cackling with laughter group of self centered, whiners sitting in the octagon lobby holding court, giving obnoxious audience to every minor complaint that walks by.
It is impossible to concentrate at the emergency computer station set up to serve the building. They want a personal note from the building owner- the building manager working practically around the clock, in contact with the owner, is not enough for them. They want a technical explanation of what the problem with the electricity is. What part of WE DON'T KNOW YET is impossible for these entitled whiners to understand? They want a technical explanation of the problem in the middle of the crisis, as if their personal understanding of a fuel cell, ConEd's massive electric feed to this building, photovoltaic panels, their connections and relationships is going to help anything except their egocentric outlook. Previously, they spread a rumor that the fuel cell was hooked up wrong, as if they have the knowledge to approach knowing this. They can't be bothered to check their email for the status reports issued from the building "it is too much trouble" one said. If the bldg owner wrote them each a personal note, they wouldn't get it anyway. I'm sitting at the computer station now with room to spare, and others who must have far superior computer skills than they, who prefer to constantly complain instead of, at the very least, ask to read the updates from one of the 'geniuses' who didn't find it difficult to get their email.
Instead of sitting on their asses complaining, they could be helping to clean up one of our devastated neighborhoods, helping with door to door searches for people with no food, working at a shelter...but their self professed ignorance of the need in this city escapes them. "I can only see what is around me and everyone else looks fine and has electricity." one stated.
My eyes have not seen the devastation either, but what type of person hasn't heard? What type of person, day after day, sits around with blinders on, in the middle of a crisis, demanding personal notes, that a valuable expert use their precious time to explain technical problems to make them feel better? Maybe I need to have compassion for these people who seem so incredibly selfish. Cancel the formula. But do send pacifiers. The power is now on but the residents here will have to endure their drivel for months if they have nothing in their mouths.
69 comments :
Free food for Octagon tenants. Sorry, that actually made me laugh a bit. These people up the road must be in such distress considering that it is impossible to get food and other essentials from anywhere else. Oh, wait...
Sorry for being a bit cynical here but really?
When was the last time you didn't have electricity for 5 days? It was an incredibly kind gesture. You should try it sometime.
First, I am extremely grateful to Barbara and to everyone here on the staff - some who have been here non-stop since SUNDAY - for all they have tried to do for us in the power outage.
Yes I heard one person in the lobby, grilling Barbara about who/what/why - and it was inappropriate - to say the very least.
Having said that, there are close to 200 children in this building - I have 3 children under the age of 2 within 4 doors of me. By Friday night, food in the refrigerators, despite the donations of ice by Riverwalk, was useless. ... these were real challenges, not so much for me, but for a mother with young children. Can you imagine waking up in a very cold room, with a small amount of warm water, a crying baby and no light?
So there is a fair question that will need to be answered in time. Many residents did believe The Octagon was "off the grid" running entirely on the fuel cell. People made the calculation to stay based on that belief. This is a question for Bruce Becker.
I myself heard the "rumors" - was told by someone in Public Safety who had just had a discussion with one of the doormen that I witnessed - that the fuel cell never ended up working. Is it true? I do not know. It is a mystery, yes.
...as for "Yet another rider"... really? Have you ever been without power for 4.5 days?
"...as for "Yet another rider"... really? Have you ever been without power for 4.5 days?"
Yes, it was actually a week and a half and not in NYC, and in addition to that there were no functioning grocery stores, restaurants, or gas stations anywhere near. Again, I am just amused that food was donated to a place that was only a short walk away from a fully stocked grocery store and a handful of restaurants. It should have been brought to people who actually haven't had access to "civilization" for those 4 1/2 days.
Okay glad you have had the experience - so you should be somewhat able to empathize.
I am curious if it was it under 40 degrees at night and did you have an infant?
oops I forgot - Thank you Riverwalk.... I wasn't here but would have been very grateful!
Frank, you're very funny. We missed your insights at the candidates meeting this afternoon.
YetAnotherRIer, you are such a loser. The bar and grill does something nice for the people with no electricity and u want to criticize them. You are the true definition of the ultimate JERK!!!!!!!!
Ms. Shull, the City's evacuation shelters would have been better for those families (as I've reported RI CERT members' experiences previously). Yes, the shelters are clean, safe, and have family dorms separate from the rest. These shelters have Heat, Food, Electricity, and are staff 24 hours, so if there were some urgent need for a family, shelter staff would work on it.
Although I'm certain Mr. Hoo gave with generosity in mind, I agree with YetAnotherRIer: the heroic display of hauling international food donations from the country of Southtown (20 blocks away) to the country of Octagon, when there was an open and full grocery store 4 blocks, seems to be overly dramatic. (Note: the last sentence contained sarcasm.) And I agree with YetAnotherRIer that there is something comical in this story.
Honestly, the parent did themselves a disservice by staying in the apartment when these evacuation shelters are opened *exactly* for these kinds of needs, such as the one on the other side from the tram/subway at Hunter College. A free red-bus/tram was not enough to get them to a warm shelter?
Ms. Shull, why aren't you encouraging those families towards smarter solutions being broadcast on every TV/radio station, like: Doing what is being done elsewhere in the City for emergency response. Are we really telling people "Staying At Home When It's Cold And Infants Are At Risk" is a good idea? It's a really poor idea, and it's also a terrible idea for you to validate this kind of thinking, which might encourage others to act poorly in the future.
The Warming Centers are open during the day ("http://www.nyc.gov/html/misc/html/2012/warming_ctr.html"). The Overnight Warming Shelters ("http://www.nyc.gov/html/misc/html/2012/overnight_shelter.html") have bus pick-ups until until 10 PM. The evacuation shelters have be consolidated post-storm (see "http://www.nyc.gov/html/misc/html/2012/hurricane_shelters.html"), the nearest is Hunter College (695 Park Ave). Or call 311 for assistance.
Frank and YetAnotherRIer why can you not understand that it was a nice gesture. No one was claiming it was famine relief. It is something neighbors do for one another. I thought Roosevelt Island was past the Octagon as pariah in the community. Although I did not partake as I was actually patronizing Riverwalk Bar&Grill at the time I thank them for the kindness.
Frank as far as the families go. You know as much about the conditions at the Octagon and our decision process as you do about island debt. So please go stir up trouble somewhere else.
I agree - I think it was a great gesture. Also,even though there was Gristedes and the restaurants, imagine trekking all around the island with kids in tow, to only return to a freezing apartment - unable to heat up food etc. Sure it can be done, but to me it seems to just add to the "demoralization" or misery. Re: Shelters. If they're about 15,000 residents on the island, why doesn't the City think we need a shelter on RI? We're in Zone B - do areas in Zone B not get shelters? As I said in another post, Octagon owner has to explain exactly what happened with the electrical system.
Guys, lighten up a bit. Even if I were an Octagon resident I would be amused to see food donations. Yes, good gesture, but really entirely and absolutely unneeded and probably misdirected.
Again, I have my own children and I am not talking as if I have no clue what you guys "went through" upstreet. But it is a bit overdramatized.
"return to a freezing apartment"? Today was the first day I personally turned on the heat. It has been far from freezing. That's what I meant with "overdramatization" above. And as much as I disagree with Frank on most things on this I entirely agree with him. There is too much whining.
Your playing semantic games. Common sense tells you that if your neighbors have their heat on and you are using things like lamps and tv's that give off ambient heat your apartment will be warmer. As for the whining most people in the Octagon did nothing of the sort but please let us know the next time you face an obstacle so we can decide if you have the right to complain or we can laugh and tell you to sit down and take it.
Frank, could you point out where these shelters were publicized BEFORE our building lost power?
And could you also make it clear how after we lost power, with no TV nor Internet, how people were supposed to find out about them? Why wasn't this on the front page of say the Friday WIRE?
Maybe you could have walked up here and passed out flyers or something... that would have been helpful. But alas... the resentment of everyone in the Octagon lives on... to call any display of neighbors trying to help neighbors in need (whether you want to recognize it as such or not) comical, is disgraceful!
(and as usual, I have to refrain from trying to have a reasonable conversation with you as there is no such possibility).
OctagonParent, I based my information on Octagon on Ms. Shull's report. If Ms. Shull was incorrect, the problem is with her reporting, not me.
However, if it were under 40 degrees for an infant with no heat, electricity, etc., then it doesn't seem like good decision-making to stay for several days. I can't imagine an ACS worker finding that it is an acceptable living condition (as reported by Ms. Shull), especially when shelters have been opened to deal with these kinds of problems, which is why I question the decision-making (again based upon Ms. Shull's reporting of conditions).
Regardless, your comment wasn't about sharing information, right?. As an Octagon parent you didn't give us any additional insight or facts that (according to you) only an Octagon Parent could provide, right? Also, you're wrong about RIOC's liabilities (I'll elaborate in a separate thread).
As for Mr. Hoo, I said "I'm certain Mr. Hoo gave with generosity in mind", what could not be clearer?
And no one is making Octagon a pariah, you're overly sensitive. In fact, it was your neighbor Ms. Shull who took on the mantle of representing Octagon as a whole who is standing up for the whiners and the dramatics.
Here's the events:
1. Rick posts comments from an Octagon resident pointing out some residents' whining and Rick posts pictures of Mr. Hoo's helping out neighbors on Octagon. (As a side note, Trellis helped Westview tenants when problems with their gas system made stove cooking impossible.)
2. YetAnotherRIer points out there some odd points in this story, and maybe the food donation might have been useful elsewhere.
At this point, it's just Mr. Hoo and Ms. Berdy doing a nice neighborly thing.
3. Enter Ms. Shull, who takes on representing the 200 starving/cold children in Octagon with infants in 40 degrees or below temps.
OctagonParent, it is at that point that Ms. Shull is now broadcasting Octagon (as a whole) and their plight:
Ms. Shull: "... there are close to 200 children in this building - I have 3 children under the age of 2 within 4 doors of me. By Friday night, food in the refrigerators, despite the donations of ice by Riverwalk, was useless. ... these were real challenges, not so much for me, but for a mother with young children. Can you imagine waking up in a very cold room, with a small amount of warm water, a crying baby and no light?"
and Ms. Shull continued about her neighbors: "... it [was] under 40 degrees at night and [had] an infant".
So if you think the thoughts were consolidated to Octagon as a whole ("Octagon as pariah", according to you), then your complaint (again) should be directed to Ms. Shull in her presentation that the issues were widespread and dire. Which gets back to the main thread of the Octagon tenant's concern that many neighbors are whining, which Ms. Shull defends.
At that point, neighbors do look into this and YetAnotherRIer's observation of "Again, I am just amused that food was donated to a place that was only a short walk away from a fully stocked grocery store and a handful of restaurants. It should have been brought to people who actually haven't had access to "civilization" for those 4 1/2 days." ... an observation not against Mr. Hoo, but a recognition that the main point (Whole Lotta Whining Going On) might be true.
In summary, it is Ms. Shull's comments, exaggeration, and dramatics that detract from the actual needs of and solutions for the residents.
CheshireKitty, you make a good point about a shelter. RI CERT members looked into having PS/IS 217 as an evacuation shelter. However, the problem is: a place with an evacuation shelter should not be a place where you night be evacuating from. So if you look at the evacuation shelters (see "http://gis.nyc.gov/oem/he/map.htm?lon=-73.95013176041121&lat=40.76029603766655"). you'll see they are not in Zone A, B, or C (we're in Zone B).
In response to your question "do areas in Zone B not get shelters?". Yes, areas A, B, and C do not get Evacuation Shelters for hurricanes.
However, the Roosevelt Island Senior Center (546 Main) has been used for a Cooling Center in the summer and, if necessary, might be used for a Heating Center in the winter. Please note the difference between a Center (which is open for certain hours during the day) and an Overnight Shelter or an Evacuation Shelter (where one can sleep at night).
As for slogging around the Island before-during-after a disaster:
"Also,even though there was Gristedes and the restaurants, imagine
trekking all around the island with kids in tow, to only return to a
freezing apartment - unable to heat up food etc. Sure it can be done,
but to me it seems to just add to the "demoralization" or misery."
It can also be a good and healthy experience that teaches children they can be resilient and overcome ... in Ready NYC, "resilience" is one of the key ingredients for communities surviving a disaster. That good deed the children do (no matter how small) will have a good feeling ... hopefully, a story retold many times by their parents. It will encourage further resilience and volunteering later on in life ... maybe those children will be grown up living somewhere else and know what to do when disaster strikes, and they'll have an inner core that fights submission to demoralization and depression and, possibly, helps/motivates others to struggle and overcome, too.
And that is a Good Thing.
Ms. Shull, the info was distributed by RIOC to all buildings on Sunday. Why didn't YOU let your neighbors know since you were providing blog comments that Sunday with more information (see "http://rooseveltislander.blogspot.com/2012/10/latest-update-for-roosevelt-island-on.html"). Not to mention, this information was all broadcasted in every medium. If you listened to the Mayor he said: go to nyc.gov and look for the info at the top of the page. It was there, just like he said. And if you didn't have internet, you could have called 311. And if you didn't know 311, then you could have called Public Safety. Or you could have read the poster RIOC sent to every building.
What you're trying to do is give us the impression that you're all in the know and you want to blog about it (see your post prior to the storm), but when it comes to helping people in your own building you're feigning: Gee, after the storm hit and the power was out, I couldn't find any info ... Gee we didn't realize we were supposed to look for this info *before* the storm and prepare *before* the storm.
In other words, your point was: You didn't realize that you needed to think a couple steps ahead when a storm arrived. I note that you're ongoing inability to think a couple steps ahead has been the essence of my complaints. It's not that I'm unreasonable, it's that you have an inability to think. I say it again because your stance is unbelievable and irresponsible:
Gee, we're living right on the water's edge ... were we supposed to find out where to evacuate *before* the storm hit?
The Darwin Awards were made for your kind of thinking.
Frank, just stop.
But weren't Coler patients evacuated to Goldwater - because Goldwater had power and Coler didn't. The issue isn't which building experienced flooding, it's which building had power, heat and so forth. The school could have been made available to Octagon residents as a place to shelter since the school did not experience a power outage. This is called nimble thinking, not the monolithic thinking of saying, well since everyone in Zone B could get flooded out, then let's not put any shelters in Zone B. If some lose power in Zone B and some do not, then there should be a contingency plan in place to provide shelter at schools in Zone B for Zone B residents that might need shelter. As far as dropping off food for Octagon: On the upper floors, with zilch water pressure, no hot water, no heat - it's possible some might not have wanted to go out, and having people drop off food was a godsend. There were volunteers dropping off food all over the E. Village to high-rises etc - even though you could say some of those residents could have built up "resilience" by trekking north of 34th St to find an open restaurant, and then upon returning to their buildings, running up the stairs to their cold apartments. It seems to me that some on this thread demonstrate a pathetic lack of community spirit despite being involved in community affairs, including the CERT team. Even on a symbolic level (and of course it was much more than that since they distributed actual food to a building with no power) Ms. Berdy and Mr. Hoo did the right thing.
Not to belabor the issue, but look at the Octagon. It's already in a rather isolated place on an island. Then the power goes out. It's not a pretty picture no matter what anybody says. It does get colder on RI than elsewhere in the city because of our location in the E. River, and at the Octagon, which is totally exposed near Hell's Gate, it is colder than in other areas of RI. I don't know about you, but I have had the heat on (and occasionally off) for several days - usually when the temp dips below about 53. Also, consider not having heat even if it is not yet freezing cold, but also not having hot water, or even, for the upper floors, water pressure. At that point, you might be doing better camping out at a spot with a spring. Of course people had plenty of notice a big storm was coming, but after the over-hyped Irene (for the NYC area) some might not have taken Sandy seriously. I certainly did not - aside from buying some extra gallons of Poland Spring, energy bars,granola, and putting a flashlight and candles on the kitchen table, I didn't prepare otherwise. I didn't prepare a "go" bag or put all my important documents in a waterproof container and so forth. I didn't think the storm was going to be a destructive monster. Of course, I was wrong. Luckily my building did not go out, but Octagon did. It's possible there were many in Octagon who also didn't take the storm seriously, just as so many in NJ and Staten Island didn't flee their communities, figuring it wouldn't be so bad. So now all these people on day of the storm and up until Friday (at a minimum) are stuck. So because they didn't "plan" we're supposed to abandon them? I don't think so.
CheshireKitty, setting up an OEM shelter is a pretty big deal, it's not simply opening up an auditorium. The shelter needs to get truckloads of supplies. Round-the-clock supervisory staff needs to be provided. Then you need to manage food and supervise separate dorms for men, women, and children. You'll need a place for pets. You'll need administrative staff. And you'll need about a half dozen police officers for 24/7 coverage. And there are lots of more pragmatics, too. Oh, and your evacuation center might then need to be evacuated during the storm because it's in Zone B?
A hurricane evacuation shelter on Roosevelt Island Really doesn't sound like good idea. Plus, we have two evacuation shelters nearby: Newcomers HS in Queens Plaza (on the Q102 route), and Hunter College (red bus and tram).
RIOC had the red buses and the tram up and running Tuesday afternoon. So Hunter College would have been the easiest, without worries of having to move again -- all available since Saturday a week ago.
As for CERT, we don't self-deploy, they teach every CERT team *not* to do that. If OEM or RIOC said they needed help from CERT, it was only a phone call away. But Octagon needs to ask for the help: you can't just have CERT people just walking into the building without a declaration or request for emergency help.
As for us CERT members as mere individuals (i.e., merely as neighbors), we are happy to help. I put up my cell phone number in a prior post, but Gwen and I have received no calls.
Ditto for the back side of Eastwood and its power outage, we are ready to help, but someone needs to request it. We can't just walk in and say "We hear there's an emergency, where can we help?", it doesn't work that way.
There is no lack of community spirit, simply it's private property and without someone in the command chain declaring it as an emergency and requesting help, we can't just walk it. Or putting it on a personal level, if I saw your apartment dark due to a power failure, I don't have the right to walk in and start "helping" you, especially if you didn't ask for help. Remember RISAR, they had good intentions but they were over the top on inserting themselves when EMS/FDNY were handling it.
In summary, Hunter College has been available for over a week and conveniently accessible via red bus and tram. Really, from Octagon get on the red bus at the stop in front of your building and in about 40 minutes you're at the shelter ... that's a pretty good deal, given the need to do it reliably and consistently City wide. I don't understand the complaints when Hunter College was easily available.
(Note: I recognize you are not an Octagon resident, I am answering the questions for the information of others, and I don't consider your concerns as a complaint originating from Octagon.)
Listen to the words you are using: "It's already in a rather isolated place on an island." (yeah, a few minutes walking makes a place isolated), "we're supposed to abandon them" (yes, a few minutes of walking would bring them to a fully stocked grocery store and restaurants, neighbors in other buildings - but we would have abandoned them if it weren't for free food deliveries).
LIsten, let me make something clear because I have been called a jerk and other things just for pointing out the humor that I see in this scenario. If I were living there I would love to get free food. Who wouldn't? It is just the way it was presented - and I guess that this actually made to the blog plus the reactions this drew - makes this feel more than just a good gesture, a neighborhoodly thing to do.
It is isolated - there's nothing around there except for the tennis courts, then Dayspring Church, the water tunnel project, the soccer field, the Fire Dept Building, the AVAC, and then you get to Motorgate. It's quite a walk through a nearly deserted area - day or night. So, we can agree to disagree - it's isolated as far as I'm concerned. You think otherwise, that's fine - you're entitled to your opinion. I think it was a nice gesture and if a building in Southtown had gone down, I bet community-minded individuals like Mr. Hoo and Ms. Berdy would have climbed stairs there to deliver food. Anybody who is stuck in their apartment for days on end - even if it isn't in a really destroyed area like the Rockaways or Staten Island - is under stress. It's never stress-free to lose power. And having food/water dropped off does mean a lot. That's why there was a massive effort in S. Manhattan - even though many of the recipients weren't that far from areas that had power and could have walked to them to buy food, recharge phones etc.
You refuse to address my point: Coler patients were evacuated to Goldwater because Goldwater had power - they were not evacuated to a hospital on higher ground. I think RIOC should give thought to designating the School, which is on higher ground than the northern side of the island, as an evacuation site, or at least a warming center. Churches throughout the City have homeless individuals staying there on a regular basis without much brouhaha - is it that big a deal to turn a gym into an emergency shelter? Just like supplies were trucked into other shelters, they could be trucked into the school. If there is a real inundation, then all bets are off and we are all stuck in our buildings until we can be evacuated - let's hope it doesn't get to that. But for a situation like part of the island getting hit - which is what happened with Octagon and Coler - wouldn't the School have been an ideal solution or alternative to have available for Octagon residents? I don't think Hunter is particularly convenient - it's several blocks from the tram, and also not exactly on top of the train. To get to the shelters in Queens without a car would have been difficult. The most convenient place would have been the island school, or if that is really not possible, then a location not far from the other side of the 36 Ave bridge, such as the school on 21st.
Given the fact that people at the Octagon could ride the Red Bus for 2 minutes and go charge their cell phones (because OMG that walk to the grocery store or restaurant or CIVILIZATION in Manhattan is so far), really, complaining and dramatization of hardship is a little unnecessary.
I walked from 34th St. to Houston to go to work this week (the busses were too full to get on), I worked without heat or power. It was less than pleasant, but not unbearable. It isn't cold enough to need heat yet, and I'm sure everyone had enough food to last until Gristedes opened again. If you were very old or had a child under 3 years, you probably should have gone to a hotel or shelter. And, like Frank said, the information about where the shelters were located was made available before the power went out.
Your house didn't catch fire, a tree didn't fall on your car or your roof, and a wave didn't come and wash your living room away. You are fine. Shush.
Nobody is complaining of hardship - we just had to put some folks in their place who evidently get off on mocking Octagon residents. These "neighbors" find it easy to point fingers and laugh at Mr. Hoo and Ms. Berdy's admirable effort to lend a hand to Octagon neighbors. You also laugh at the folks, including Ms. Berdy, who helped Coler patients evacuate? Hey, maybe those patients should have toughed it out in the cold, eh? You still haven't explained why, if it was so easy to get on a bus to get a phone charged or buy food, the City and State provided phone charging stations, food/water distribution spots on a massive scale throughout lower Manhattan - where many blacked-out areas were within easy walking distance of areas with power. You don't seem to understand that not everybody is in a position to climb up and down 20 or 30 flights of steps and then walk a mile or 2 to obtain food. And those people in high-rises - they had no water pressure in addition to no heat or hot water. And many do not thrive in the chill - that's why warming centers were also set up. Maybe you do not need heat yet - how wonderful. Why don't you go for a swim on New Years Day along with the Polar Bear Club in Coney Island so you can prove to the world what a macho guy you are, absolutely impervious to the elements, a titan of strength. The point of an effort like Mr. Hoo's and Ms. Berdy's is to provide comfort and a meal for those who are not in a position to run around in the cold and then climb 20 flights of steps back to a chilly apartment. If Mr. Hoo's and Ms. Berdy's effort helped even 1 family in Octagon, then it was worth it.
My point was that no one at the Octagon was in that position. It is a 4 story building, the majority of people who live there are not medically fragile, elderly or handicapped. For those that are, I do hope they got help getting to a shelter. The busses on Roosevelt Island were not over-crowded as they were in Manhattan - people could get places.
Those measures were necessary in Manhattan. Those patients at Coler did need help, but Octagon residents, who pay well more rent than I could afford, do not need handouts (their credit cards continued to function everywhere that still had internet - heck, they could have ordered delivery! Maybe they had solar chargers!)
I would hope Mr. Hoo delivered food to the patients at the hospital, but I don't think that is what happened, now is it?
I live in the octagon. It is 12 stories, not 4. The parents here were coping just fine, admirably in fact. Parents rise to care for their children, something Denise Schull knows nothing about. She is an exemplary whining, struggling author with a bigger mouth than brain. I'd suggest she not advertise her idiocy here. There wasn't a whisper I heard about going to a shelter. I would have laughed in the face of anyone suggesting it and I have kids here. Staying was much less disruptive than going to a shelter. Kids played, we figured out how to light a gas stove- imagine that! Warm clothes and a blanket on an infant- I think the parents here figured out how to dress their kids appropriately for chilly air.
The food was a nice gesture. It was stressful 'camping' for a few days and it was a relief to have hot food given to us, just for a break. It would have been really nice if one of the buildings with gym or pool showers would have let us use them. But some of us even learned how to run a hot bath with no hot water. We are just full of surprises up here in the boondocks.
According to the Octagon building website, the building has "fourteen stories", not 4. 14 stories is 14 stories - not so easy to climb, even for someone who is not elderly, fragile or handicapped.
Oh - so the measures were necessary in Manhattan - at least you admit that. So, if they were necessary in Manhattan, maybe Mr. Hoo and Ms. Berdy had the right idea in dropping off food. If they needed help in Manhattan, they needed help at Octagon. I hope this is the last comment on the subject on the blog.
Your remarks about the amount of rent paid at Octagon, if the residents use credit cards, are irrelevant. The blackout "leveled" (or even, demolished) the economic playing field - what use are credit cards if you can't prepare food or even boil water because the electricity doesn't work?
Did anybody deliver food to any affected hospital (such as NYU-Langone and Bellevue)? If you can find one instance of individuals delivering food to hospitals, let me know.
The point is Coler patients were evacuated to another Zone B hospital, and that was OK because the other hospital hadn't flooded, even though it was in Zone B.
It's not that difficult to convert a school gym - perhaps a gym at The Child School if the Island School is unavailable - to a makeshift shelter. There would already be exercise mats available and what does it take to have the City drop off a shipment of blankets? If cots cannot be spared, people could sleep on mats. You make it sound like rocket science - it's only providing people with a place to stay on a very temporary basis (hopefully). A school already has bathrooms, and most likely a kitchen along with a cafeteria. The question is - as you say - does it make sense to designate a school in Zone B as a possible shelter. Answer: It would depend on if the school flooded or lost power. If it didn't then it could serve as a perfectly adequate shelter - just as Goldwater was usable for Coler patients.
Of course there are plenty of areas in NY, NJ, and elsewhere that are facing years of rebuilding, decontamination etc. There's no comparison with what happened on RI, thank goodness. We were just discussing in this thread the kind gesture of Mr. Hoo and Ms. Berdy in dropping off food for Octagon while the building's power was down. I and others thought it was a nice gesture of solidarity and neighborliness. Others snarkily laughed at the effort - which brought up past hurts and rifts vis-a-vis Octagon, which had, it is hoped, long ago disappeared.
Face, meet palm. Enough said.
CheshireKitty, you're not thinking about this as if you had to implement it, you're waiving by many important operational requirements. You don't grok why the Coler transfer doesn't apply in general to hurricane evacuation shelters. The RI CERT has looked into this, and we better understand why it isn't possible (which I've already explained).
Here's some more reasoning: let's say (hypothetically) that PS/IS 217 were open when the power went out. That would imply that it was open days before, which would imply that someone shipped supplies on the Thursday/Friday before the storm.
At that point in advance (Thursday/Friday), the forecast cannot be precise enough on the flooding levels. Even in the 24 hours prior to the storm, the storm surge exceedance probabilities varied significantly: there was a 10% chance of 11-17 feet, which would have flooded the school. (Note: the actual height was about 5-7 feet, which was the 50% probability stratum.)
Once the storm starts, evacuating an evacuation shelter makes no sense, it's dangerous, and it's a waste of resources and emergency responders who could be better used elsewhere.
In other words, you tell Roosevelt Island residents on Saturday that PS/IS 217 is an evacuation shelter, and maybe some people from Octagon come to the shelter in the middle of the storm, and then the shelter has to be closed in the middle of the storm and people transferred to another shelter because the flooding went past Zone A into Zone B.
Right, the next day the Daily News will have the headline:
Knuckleheads Open Evacuation Shelter On Water's Edge, Get Flooded, and Require Evacuation In Middle Of The Storm
The response would be scathing. Why did we do it? An anonymous blogger with the alias CheshireKitty lobbied for the shelter.
And wait until New Yorkers discover the reason we insisted on a hurricane evacuation shelter in a flood zone: Roosevelt Islanders were unwilling to take the Q102 to Queens Plaza or the red-bus/tram to Hunter College because they wanted some place 5 minutes away, rather than 40 minutes away.
If you really think it is a great idea, go talk to OEM and present it to them. The RI CERT has already looked into this. I'm passing on the insight from OEM on why RI is unsuitable for hurricane evacuation center. Maybe you can do the leg work and let us know what you find.
I don't think you grok the correct usage of the word "grok" ... You certainly use it more than is warranted.
Oh God. You've just invited another endless side-thread, which presumably will be launched with the words "Jesse, according to ask.com, the definition of 'grok' is . . . ."
Wow!!!!!
"Free food for Octagon tenants. Sorry, that actually made me laugh a bit." This was YetAnother's cynical reaction to a nice, neighborly effort.. Now, YetAnother is virtually slapping down folks who applaud charity and humanity. Has a slapdown ever solved anything? No - it's just a weak-minded response by someone out of arguments.
grok: to understand thoroughly and intuitively
i.e., what I meant. Terminologically, your complaint is invalid: you'd need to show NONE of the senses of "grok" applied, not just your favorite one. Why not do a little checking before you post?
Jesse is right. It's not applicable in the current thread. I'm certainly not an OEM official - just another RI-er. There were areas in Zone B that flooded extensively such as Marine Park in Brooklyn, yet on RI, only Coler was severely flooded, with the consequences of the infrastructure damage spreading to Octagon. You don't need to be a profound thinker or have deep insight to see that there is some capriciousness in the way flooding overspread some areas but not others, and that officials reacted accordingly. On RI, Coler was evacuated to Goldwater since power stayed on in Goldwater, but there was no provision on RI for providing a warming center or shelter for Octagon residents - even though something along those lines could have been set up despite what Frank says. All I'm asking is that RIOC *designate* possible shelter spots on RI, such as the Island School, the Child School gym on Main St, or even the Chapel - despite the fact that the entire island is in Zone B. If they flood - then they're not usable. If they do not flood, then supplies etc can be trucked in and they can be used as temporary shelters/warming centers. This isn't rocket science, folks.
None of us knows what will happen next time there's a flood - the only thing I "grok" in my own admittedly limited way, is that you do not have to be a profound thinker to implement a shelter, or a warming center, even within Zone B areas, once a flood has subsided, to provide local communities with amenities/warmth until either power is restored or in the more devastated areas, until relocation plans are figured out. The concentration of evacuees to central locations often far from their homes may make sense operationally from the standpoint of the City, but can't RIOC, which only has to worry about a small island community, put in contingency plans for just these sorts of emergencies, wherein residents do not have to go either halfway across Queens or into Manhattan to find warmth?
CheshireKitty, you've shifted. Before it was an evacuation shelter, now it is a warming center that you want. The Senior Center has already been used as a cooling/warming center, but it needs to be activated. If it's not a general problem, but a specific building problem (as it was for Octagon), then Octagon management needs to call the City, OEM, or RIOC to activate the center.
Maybe it would be better to hear from Octagon's managing agent on their emergency/contingency plans. I just read their explanation on how they were managing the power problem. It sounds like they ran into some unexpected problems, and they sought to overcome them. Drills can help improve planning, but sometimes there are surprises. Based on their letter, their reaction sounds reasonable, but there will always be Lessons Learned. Maybe Octagon residents could share their insights on their managing agent's response? (Probably should be posted on the other thread.)
Yes!!
YetAnotherRIer's response "face, meet palm" is not a slapping down gesture, but a sign of exasperation that you (CheshireKitty) aren't hearing what is said. Try it yourself: put your right elbow on the table, turn your palm upward (like you're holding a head of cabbage), now lean your head forward while your palm comes up to you face. Typically, the eyes close and there is a little side-to-side shaking of the head after the palm and face connect, sometimes it's accompanied by an audible sigh. It's a well-known gesture (see Get Smart re-runs for the Chief's reaction to yet-another-stupid-idea from Maxwell Smart). Unfortunately, you've misinterpreted that gesture as a "virtually slapping down folks who applaud charity and humanity".
CK -- The real problem here is that, as Frank has identified, you don't "thoroughly and intuitively" understand why the evacuation of Coler patients isn't the same as an evacuation of a residential complex. Even if Frank ultimately manages to make you understand, your understanding still won't be "intuitive." This is what Frank was trying to say when he used the word "grok." I know that because he used it correctly.
Scientific illiteracy: "you don't need to be a profound thinker or have deep insight to see that there is some capriciousness in the way flooding overspread some areas but not others" according to CheshireKitty. There is no whim, impulsiveness, etc. (capriciousness) in how water flows over land, it's pure science (physics, hydrology) and it's easily predictable. As the water rose this time, it flooded the same areas in same order as it did in Irene last year. In theory, you learned this in Earth Science in junior high school.
Here's a tip: the areas that didn't flood were higher elevation (or surrounded by higher areas) than those that flooded. To the extent that east winds pushed (small) waves, there was a very slight preference (a handful of inches) to flooding on the east-facing shores of Roosevelt Island.
"In theory, you learned this in Earth Science in junior high school."
But does she grok it?
hahahahaha
Really Frank, give kitty the number to CERT. She can take the 10 week course that explains everything you are writing here and approach grokkimg this subject.
In my opinion, The Octagon didn't approach evacuation status. I have several kids here and we were inconvenienced but fine. Gas cook tops and ovens can heat up apartments. Ever baked a cake on a hot day?
Kitty, I admire your determination to help us but please help someone who needs it.
With that attitude, it's a wonder they let you interact with kids in the Robotics Class. I repeat: There is always a random or capricious element. Why was the 4 Freedoms FDR Park unscathed - even though it is just about at sea level - although Lighthouse Park submerged? I'm not an "earth scientist" like you (along with transportation specialist, and expert on so many other topics) but it would seem that the amount of flooding varied depending on the direction of the tidal surge, so that the surge coming in from the Atlantic was not as strong as that hitting RI from the Sound. Next time, it may be the other way around, or the level of the East River may rise uniformly. Some areas in Zone B were badly flooded and were not evacuated because they were Zone B areas, so the extent of flooding is not entirely predictable, thus, it's capricious.
Hey, not all of us took Earth Science in Junior High School. Anyway, I was in the accelerated program in JHS - 3 years in 2 - and then went on to a specialized/elite high school and although we were up to our ears with extremely well-taught and interesting classes (had more class hours than most high schools) there's a good chance Earth Science was not one of the subjects I studied. After that, Ivy League...
Kid, you're saying evacuation of a residential complex is more difficult than the evacuation of a hospital? How is that possible? Think about what you're saying.. it makes no sense.
You're over-interpreting YetAnother's post - supplying a "motive" or, as you would have it, a justification for his virtual attack. His words I think need no interpretation, just as my reply is clear: YetAnother and you mock the generous, and neighborly effort of Mr. Hoo and Ms. Berdy to drop off food at the Octagon. I and others came to their defense. Shame on you for showing no support, or community spirit, especially coming from a CERT member..
Mr./Ms. Farance,
Merriam-Webster's definition: "grok: to understand profoundly and intuitively." Key word "profound."
And a quick scroll down the Dictionary.com definition you cited references the Free On-Line Dictionary of Computing, which states that grok "connotes intimate and exhaustive knowledge."
Are you really implying that CheshireKitty's not qualified to comment on this topic because she lacks a "profound, ... intimate and exhaustive knowledge" of disaster management? Further, do you believe that CheshireKitty should work to attain a "profound, ... intimate and exhaustive knowledge" of disaster management before expressing any opinion on this topic?
Just because some tech nerds like you and me use and hear grok in everyday conversation doesn't mean it's appropriate in every situation. The word is ridiculous here.
Oh Jesse Webster, you fell for the bait (which was so visible). Just because you have cited a particular definition (out of many), doesn't mean that that was particular the concept (the sense) I was referring to. I gave you the concept I was referring to in dictionary.com. Even though I understand another sense of "grok" (e.g., the computer one, as in "this C compiler groks 'void' datatypes"), I meant it in the lay sense. So "profound, ... intimate and exhaustive knowledge" is not the sense I meant.
That's why I said: you'll have to show that none of the senses work, not you favorite one (which you cited). So saying "I started the car, grokked into Reverse, then grokked into Drive, then grokked into Neutral at the stop light" is probably an example of not using "grok" correctly because none of the senses of "grok" work.
You ask "do you believe that CheshireKitty should work to attain a "profound, ...
intimate and exhaustive knowledge" of disaster management before
expressing any opinion on this topic?". Answer: No. However, even if CheshireKitty doesn't understand the topic, I would expect that she is open to being informed about the topic. I've tried to share with her some information about hurricane evacuation shelters and their planning ... just as I am open to being informed about topics you and others present.
CheshireKitty, with your Ivy League experience and specialized/elite high school education, you never came across (say) a garden hose filled with water and, when holding both ends upward, noticed that the water was at the same height (elevation) in both ends and remained so even when you raised/lowered one of the hose ends?
Can't say I ever came across this during the course of my education, although I can envision it. It is true that the water will remain level within the hose - but in the discussion of why some shorelines were impacted more severely than others, there must be other factors (in addition to water level) to consider as well. Can you explain why FDR 4 Freedoms Park emerged unscathed even though the Room is barely above sea-level? The surge of course wasn't even throughout the affected region. The point is, these storms and the way they play out are never completely predictable; and on a small island such as ours, RIOC should make an effort to provide something - a shelter or a warming center - in case of a major disruption such as a power outage, or at least have a plan for same, which could be implemented if conditions permit.
How difficult it must be for you, Mr./Ms. Farance, to be unable to admit you're wrong, even in the face of indisputable evidence. Keep stating your weak case; maybe the poles will shift and the facts will realign.
CheshireKitty, second graders in my Robotics Class are able to explain that height (elevation) is a main factor in flooding. Ditto for their ability to explain (via feet in sand at the beach) some things erode more and some things erode less, i.e., the later are things they use to protect their sand castles from the waves.
The notion of Zone B is not a specific water level, just as "teenager" (13-19 years old) is not a specific age -- the levels are stratified (put in categories, each one known as a stratum). So some Zone B areas with flooding and some not is understandable because Zone B corresponds to a range of heights (elevations), not a single height (elevation). No capriciousness involved.
The direction of the tidal surge is very slow, for example today's high tide at East 41 Street is at 01:47 PM with a height of 4.13 feet, while the high tide at East 90 Street (Horn's Hook) is at 03:13 PM with a height of 4.48 feet (about 3 inches difference, and about an hour difference).
On the night of the storm East 41 Street's high tide was at 09:56 PM (height 4.5 feet) and at East 90 Street it was at 10:53 PM
(height 4.79 feet). At The Battery, high tide was at 08:53 PM (height 4.74 feet), which was closer to the peak of the storm. Regardless, the difference between high and low tides is about around 4.5 feet. Because the water level at Roosevelt Island was about 5-7 higher than high tide, the storm surge contributed most of the flooding here.
Ah, now I grok what you're saying! I didn't grok it before. But I think grok it now.
Why didn't they deliver food to the patients who remained at Coler? Because patients from Coler aren't going to go down and spend money at Riverwalk! Marketing! (ie not trying to be neighborly)
Also, I'm pretty sure that YetAnotherRIer is only mocking you at this point, Helen.
I am glad we have the good old Kitty back. I found myself agreeing with her for a tad too long lately. I don't think Frank is the only one overinterpreting things. You are very good at that as well. Let me repeat this again: this is a story you would find on the Daily Show. Unfortunately, you don's seem to notice that. Welcome back, CK.
1+1 = 2, even if you INTENDED for 1+1 to = 3 based on your own flawed interpretation of the rules of mathematics. Grok the vote!
Jesse, you fell for the bait again! I gave you a little bit of terminology terminology, by using the word "intension", not "intention". Here is what I said:
"... now you're telling me you know what was in my head and my intension better then I do"
I didn't say "intention" (as in "I intended to phone you"), I said "intension", which is "the set of characteristics which makes up the concept" (ISO 1087-1:2000). So words like "intension" and "extension" ("the totality of objects to which a concept corresponds") are words terminologists use when talking about a concept. So my intension of "grok" included characteristics such as "understanding" combined with "thoroughly" and "intuitively". My intension did not include characteristics "profound", "intimate", or "exhaustive" combined with "knowledge".
In summary, to use your word: I did not intend to use "intention" (related to "intend"), I intended to use "intension" (related to "intensity").
I didn't say you used the word "intention." I did, however, use "intended" to make my point. Better luck next time.
Actually Jesse, I've already had great luck this time: a very nice and extended discussion with you and your ridiculous points.
(And your post using "intended" only made (partial) sense by misreading my "intension" as "intention". Reframing it as you now say makes no sense. But we don't need to try to work on this any further because you're trying to tell me you know better what was in my head ... and you need to make that point stick because ... gee, I don't know any more ... because you were trying to peel me off with one little nit pick on two different senses of the word "grok" ... because? Your subthread never made sense. Ridiculous.)
Kid - Giving residents an option - meaning either a warming center or a shelter - is not the same as transferring long-term disabled patients with complex medical problems and needs. It is far easier to provide cots and the basics including food, water, warmth, than to provide often advanced care to long-term disabled patients such as those that are at Coler. Coler is a long-term care facility - it isn't like Bellevue or Langone. Coler patients can't climb out of their wheelchairs and walk down stairs. Some Coler patients are in vegetative states, or paralyzed. A temporary emergency facility for able-bodied is of course easier to set up than providing complex medical care for long-term disabled patients. Readers of the blog can decide for themselves if it is more complicated to provide a warming center or a temporary shelter to the able-bodied vs providing complex medical care for long-term disabled patients.
OK YetAnother - we disagree, so let's leave it at that. You think Mr. Hoo and Ms. Berdy delivering meals to Octagon was humorous - funny enough even for the Daily Show. Many of us think it was a nice gesture. It's a waste of everyone's time and effort to rehash the same old arguments...
I welcome humor - but I don't exactly see him as capable of cracking a joke at my expense. Let's see if he can come up with something that will make us all smile, at least.
You think Sal and Judy had Riverwalk marketing in mind? That's a good one... but far-fetched. It was just a neighborly gesture - BTW, the minute analysis of which reminds me of an extended thread of last summer regarding PierNYC which again had Frank and Sal on opposite sides of an argument. That went on for several knee-slappingly funny weeks until Sal finally dropped out of the blog altogether - which you can't really blame him for doing so (probably couldn't spare the time from running his businesses). Does Frank still nurse a bruised ego after the repeated virtual thrashings he received then from Sal? Who (no pun intended) knows...
What's ridiculous is your need to always have the last (long-winded) word in every conversation. In fact, I'm sure you'll respond to this reply as well. Can't control yourself. Grok me?
Now Jesse, there you go using "grok" consistent with my sense ("to understand thoroughly and intuitively"), but inconsistent with your sense ("profound, ... intimate and exhaustive knowledge"). So when you say "Grok me?" in that context, it is possible that I might understand you "thoroughly and intuitively", but we already know that it is impossible that I have "profound, ...intimate and exhaustive knowledge" of you. I don't know if you're male or female -- a polite question I've asked and you respond with (what you believe is) clever mocking, i.e., your mocking me demonstrates you know I don't have "profound, ... intimate and exhaustive knowledge".
Thus, it implies: you don't believe your sense of "grok" is the one that applies, and my sense of "grok" prevails.
Nicely done, eh?
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